The vaccine passport (QR code), a new debate.

[gaby]

ONTARIO....hey...FORD sort enfin se sa cachette----invisible depuis fin Juillet--et annonce à son tour--pas vraiment le choix--la mise en place d'un passeport vaccinal le 22 Septembre...mais insiste pour dire qu'il n'aime pas le faire....,MAIS que c'est important
et TEMPORAIRE ....hum...cela reste à voir...lol .

 

[gallantca]

The only argument then is whether the unvaccinated should have full access to free or subsidized health care, to avoid overloading the system. If you deny them that, those vaccination levels will go up very quickly.

The problem is the medical system is made to not deny people services necessary to their choices. It's 100% who needs it the most in the short term.
Real example.

An emergency surgeon has to chose to treat a child in a car accident who if he isn't operated in the next 10min will lose his limb and have to live the rest of his life with a handicap. He had no control in this situation. A second person, a 60 year old motorcycle rider who chose not to wear a helmet, had a few too many beers crashes and has head trauma. If he is not operated in the next 10min he may die. You're a surgeon. You can only do one. You have the call. Who do you treat ? You don't have to answer, but in Quebec the rule would be you go for the motorcycle rider.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Some restaurateurs are against the vaccine passport. One said that these are repeat customers and these friends, and I don't want to turn them down.

If they don't have their passport, I wouldn't want them as friends.

And i wouldn't want peoples like you as friend either who think its a good thing to give way too much power to a governement.

If the VP would had been base on choice by businesses i would had accept it. But they forcing it now and this feel like a start leaning on China type of govs

 

[CLOUD 500]

So what is your solution ? Let people do what they want ?

There is 100% certainty the hospitals will overflow. Let it work itself out ?

Yes that is exactly what I propose. Let people live their life as they see fit. You never heard of self-accountability? For every choice there are consequences. Does a parent keep on taking care of their kid even through adulthood? As for hospitals that is 100% the government's fault. See what happens when it is left to government to manage? How well did Socialism work for Cuba, Venezuela, and the Soviet Union? The hospitals has been overcrowded for years. Look at the stats and you will see it is no different today then it was five years ago. When I went to the ER for my shoulder problem in July, the hospital was no more overcrowded then usual. You should stop believing everything you see on TV.

 

[CLOUD 500]

The problem is the medical system is made to not deny people services necessary to their choices. It's 100% who needs it the most in the short term.
Real example.

An emergency surgeon has to chose to treat a child in a car accident who if he isn't operated in the next 10min will lose his limb and have to live the rest of his life with a handicap. He had no control in this situation. A second person, a 60 year old motorcycle rider who chose not to wear a helmet, had a few too many beers crashes and has head trauma. If he is not operated in the next 10min he may die. You're a surgeon. You can only do one. You have the call. Who do you treat ? You don't have to answer, but in Quebec the rule would be you go for the motorcycle rider.

All hospitals do triage at the ER. It is a reality of the medical system.`

 

[CLOUD 500]

Complete freedom during a time of crisis is tantamount to anarchy, and this is not what the population wants. The govt is there to act and maintain control over an emergency situation. This is the responsibility we give them by voting.

That is what is worse. You see how naive society is. The media along with the government successfully scared people with fear mongering reports (make things sound a lot worse with alarmist news) then the government comes to the rescue to provide a false sense of security. Watch in some years we will have climate lockdowns. Complete freedom is the only solution and makes for a thriving society. Government control is very bad for society. You ever watch the Original Star Trek? There is an episode called Return of the Archons. Reminds me of that. Landry a computer trying to make paradise in its own vision and everyone is cared for but controlled. Society is not growing and is stagnant.

The Return of the Archons - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[sene5hos]

And i wouldn't want peoples like you as friend either who think its a good thing to give way too much power to a governement.

If the VP would had been base on choice by businesses i would had accept it. But they forcing it now and this feel like a start leaning on China type of govs

We all agree.

All of my family, friends, SP I see, everyone is fully vaccinated.

And all have and will have their vaccination passport.

Me, no vaccines, no meetings.

The only thing I hope is that you tell the SP that you want to meet.

 

[CLOUD 500]

It takes authority to manage a large population.

We must not forget that the vaccination passport is an additional measure to be able to get out of this pandemic, and that it's a temporary measure.

Keep telling yourself that.

 

[Fradi]

^^^^^
I strongly disagree with you. Vaccine passports is one step away from a nanny state and it leads to division and segregation as we are witnessing now. It is not government's job to social engineer society. Government has a role but right now government is too involved in everyones personal lives. The problem is authoriatanism. Authoriatarian governments are very destructive to society as a whole. Nothing good comes out of it. Orwellian 1984 is what we are living. And also government is coercing vaccines. It does not have to be direct forcing but it is a method to force something. I will always be on the side of freedom. Nothing is more important then having freedom. To clarify my stance I am not anti-vaxx, I am anti-authoritarian.

I think most people are anti-authoritarian including me if you remember I thought curfews ( the type imposed here anyway) was a joke, people could see each other 5 minutes before the curfew and spread the infection the virus doesn’t care about time.
This virus now with the Delta variant is not a joke there are thousands dying world wide daily still.
Vaccine passports or proof of vaccination is nothing new this has been in place for decades, there are certain countries that you can only enter if you have had the required shots, when I visited these places I always made sure I stopped by the company nurse and had the required shots. Now how did this control my life . It gave me a much better chance of coming home healthy not a 100% but much safer than without it.
I totally agree with this I don’t want to be sitting next to an unvaccinated person or have my children and grandchildren exposed to them.
Just had this situation come up with a golf tournament one of our 4 couldn’t make it and they asked if they could add a person but he is unvaccinated. All 3 of us responded that not only don’t we want him in our 4 but if we see his name on the list anywhere we are cancelling and would they kindly refund our fees.
Enough of this BS if you don’t want to be vaccinated then don’t mix with vaccinated people and stay the fuck away from non essential places. You are a fucking serious liability period.

 

[gallantca]

I definitely vote for operating on the child.

A Canadian doctor was reprimanded for choosing the child.
I changed the accident so someone doesn't recognize this. It was not a motorcycle accident without a helmet and drunk, but it was equally stupid.
The good news is both survived but the doctor took flack for doing what was right according to many people's judgment.

 

[gallantca]

Yes that is exactly what I propose. Let people live their life as they see fit. You never heard of self-accountability? For every choice there are consequences. Does a parent keep on taking care of their kid even through adulthood? As for hospitals that is 100% the government's fault. See what happens when it is left to government to manage? How well did Socialism work for Cuba, Venezuela, and the Soviet Union? The hospitals has been overcrowded for years. Look at the stats and you will see it is no different today then it was five years ago. When I went to the ER for my shoulder problem in July, the hospital was no more overcrowded then usual. You should stop believing everything you see on TV.

It's not self accountability. I don't want to live with the consequences of an idiot's actions. It's simple.

The top healthcare systems in the world where overcome by Covid. We probably agree that Legault isn't what a leader should be, but to think you can have a healthcare system able to handle a pandemic without restrictions, you don't have a clue what healthcare is.

And finally I don't watch or believe TV. I have many doctor and nurse friends, I trust what they tell me. I trust peer reviewed science. I stay away from Dr Youtube.

 

[gaby]

Hum...First experience....By this beautiful Thursday in the city i went this morning for breakfeast at AW near my place as usual ---btw good and not expensive But not for the ambiance lol---and was ready for the test.....they never never asked for it.......went to another customer to ask him if they asked him....he said no adding it was ok for him cause he had any proof with him....hum...not a good start.....and before leaving i went to the cashier to ask her about the passport and she said none told her about it...wow...
y a du chemin à faire ..lol.....Will see tonight am going again to a resto with a friend for dinner.....

 

[CLOUD 500]

I think most people are anti-authoritarian including me if you remember I thought curfews ( the type imposed here anyway) was a joke, people could see each other 5 minutes before the curfew and spread the infection the virus doesn’t care about time.
This virus now with the Delta variant is not a joke there are thousands dying world wide daily still.
Vaccine passports or proof of vaccination is nothing new this has been in place for decades, there are certain countries that you can only enter if you have had the required shots, when I visited these places I always made sure I stopped by the company nurse and had the required shots. Now how did this control my life . It gave me a much better chance of coming home healthy not a 100% but much safer than without it.
I totally agree with this I don’t want to be sitting next to an unvaccinated person or have my children and grandchildren exposed to them.
Just had this situation come up with a golf tournament one of our 4 couldn’t make it and they asked if they could add a person but he is unvaccinated. All 3 of us responded that not only don’t we want him in our 4 but if we see his name on the list anywhere we are cancelling and would they kindly refund our fees.
Enough of this BS if you don’t want to be vaccinated then don’t mix with vaccinated people and stay the fuck away from non essential places. You are a fucking serious liability period.

For me it is not big deal for the vaccine passport. I got my two doses and got the vaccine app.. I posted in a thread about going to Champion. It is the idea of authoritarianism that bothers me the most. This is not the first time in history things like this happened. Similar removal of civil liberties happened during the Black Plague and Spanish Flu. Look it up you would be surprised. Another main problem is now business establishments got to play police and check for vaccine status. How long does this go for? Who knows. And another criticism that businesses had made and I completely agree with is if you got now only vaccinated people visiting these businesses that the government deemed as non-essential then why are the customers being forced to wear a mask and be 2 meters apart? Why is not the sale of alcohol not returned to 3am and bring back Karaoke and dancing on the floor? At the end this hurts the bottom line of all these businesses. Take a look around you prices have risen so much but salaries remain the same. We still have not experienced the full extent of the damage all these government lockdowns has caused but we will soon. All that debts we accumulated will catch up soon with all citizens except politicians and big business. We all will be paying a hidden tax called inflation. But you see how in the example you given how media fear mongering has caused so much division and segregation and discrimination.

This governor of Florida is doing the right thing and we need this in Canada. Any business that asks for covid vaccine proof will be fined $5000. Too bad society in Canada are such lovers of Socialism.

Ask for COVID-19 vaccine proof, face a US$5,000 fine in Florida

Florida will start issuing US$5,000 fines to businesses, schools and government agencies that require people to show proof of a COVID-19 vaccination.

www.ctvnews.ca

[...]

 

[gallantca]

And another criticism that businesses had made and I completely agree with is if you got now only vaccinated people visiting these businesses that the government deemed as non-essential then why are the customers being forced to wear a mask and be 2 meters apart? Why is not the sale of alcohol not returned to 3am and bring back Karaoke and dancing on the floor?

Completely arbitrary scale

A non vaccinated person is a risk of 9
A non vaccinated person with a mask in a bar is a 8
A non vaccinated drunk person in a bar is a 10

A vaccinated person is a 5
A vaccinated person with a mask in a bar is a 4
A vaccinated drunk is a 6

The idea is to bring the total risk as low as possible

100 unvaccinated drunks is a 1000
100 vaccinated drunks is a 600
50 vaccinated somewhat sober people, mask/social distancing is a 200

Allow only the vaccinated, put some measures in place, reduce capacity and control the 3AM drunks and your risk is 5x less. Again made up numbers but you get the idea.

Only old people that watch TVA and are in bed by 8 do Karoake, so no need for a score. Just hope Arruda doesn't start scoring the risk of air dances vs grinding.

 

[CLOUD 500]

^^^^^
The problem is the politicians turned it all political. The way the media reports is to cause alarmism. They report cases and when you see the numbers it appears very bad. But what are cases? Majority got mild symptoms just like flu cases but they weaponized it to push their political agenda. The only cases we should be concerned with and the ones that should be reported are the ones that end up in the hospital due to severe illness from covid. The rest are insignificant. After all they said the vaccines do not prevent infection just reduce the severity of symptoms. Arruda and Lego are both acting like dictators. They can very well score the risk of air dances vs grinding I would not put it past them.

 

[anon_vlad]

Bombshell: Nobel Prize Winner Reveals - Covid Vaccine is 'Creating Variants' - RAIR (rairfoundation.com)

There is some infos like that, i can't say if they are true or false, but i saw before that everybody who goes against the "narrative" since the start have been shamed and they tried to make them look bad. Some doctors have said in private things that they refuse to say loud in fear.

Some variants could happen naturally but some countries that had clinical test for vaccines had variants coming from there. Like i said before, can't say if all of this is true or not, but the point is ultimately FORCING the vaccine ain't right. If peoples want to take it, great, do it, but if they don't, their decisions should be respected.

The rairfoundation is a haven for white supremacists. They are still pushing the "Obama is a Muslim" nonsense. Montagnier has become a nut job in his old age, much like Shockley, [who also won a (in fact, 2 Nobels)].

https://www.newswise.com/factcheck/debunking-the-claim-that-vaccines-cause-new-covid-19-variants

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

 

[gallantca]

^^^^^
The problem is the politicians turned it all political. The way the media reports is to cause alarmism. They report cases and when you see the numbers it appears very bad. But what are cases? Majority got mild symptoms just like flu cases but they weaponized it to push their political agenda. The only cases we should be concerned with and the ones that should be reported are the ones that end up in the hospital due to severe illness from covid. The rest are insignificant. After all they said the vaccines do not prevent infection just reduce the severity of symptoms. Arruda and Lego are both acting like dictators. They can very well score the risk of air dances vs grinding I would not put it past them.

I share your frustration

I put a BS scoring example. But the reality is there is something called an R number. An R number allows you to predict how many people will get infected. When a R number is 1.5 it means a person will infect on average 1.5 people, who will affect 1.5 people that will infect 1.5 people so you end up with 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 5 people very quickly, and it grows exponentially. It's like a forest fire. This is what is happening right now.

When you know the R number you can predict how many people will be infected, how many will be hospitalized and when the health system will break. It's not perfect but they are better at predicting R numbers than the weather . If you let the R number get away, you are F'd. Royally F'd. You will not recover for months and you will get into lockdowns. This is not an exageration.

A bad number means in 3 weeks there will be a LOT of cases and hospitalizations will follow. Don't look a the number of cases today, look at the R number. It is very hard to bring down when it goes up. VERY VERY hard.

The government tracks and publishes the R number. It was over 2 last spring. It was around 1.2 in August.

Nobody looks at it. Legault does his BS speeches and the media make a big hoopla about BS.

When that R number goes below 1, the virus dies off, like it did this summer.

Vaccination brings the R number down, masks, distancing...all bring it down.
New variants bring it up
The balance is to stay as close as 1 as possible while not killing the economy.

It's a slow process to bring it down. The modelling of the R number is extremely complex. But it is the most precise measure of what is happening

 

[Fradi]

I would agree that the media way over does the scare mongering and the real important numbers are the hospitalizations and more importantly the number of deaths, but unfortunately there is way too many of those also, probably will be significantly less now that a large portion of the population is vaccinated.
As far as Arruda and Legault I am not a fan of either, I still remember both telling all Quebecers masks are not necessary in the beginning and you can spin it any way you want but Quebec still accounts for way more deaths than any other province so no they do not get a gold medal in all this.

 

[Stx]

As gallantca explained, with the arrival of delta the idea of defeating the virus has been abandoned. The vaccinated can still catch it, transmit it, in rare cases get very sick from it and, in extremely rare cases, die from it. There is also the potential issue of waning immunity over time vs delta, as is seemingly the case in Israel (but not in the UK, surprisingly). Is it much much less likely to happen compared to an unvaccinated person? Yes. However, there is still a minimal risk that is present. I myself caught delta in Europe during my vacation, but thankfully had no symptoms.

Thus, in a way we're back to a similar position as we were when the pandemic first started, where all we can do is slow the spread to limit hospitalizations. It's all about damage limitation and preventing a collapse of our healthcare system, there is no longer really an endgame. The "endgame" is that covid becomes endemic and the entire population has developped immunity to it (either via natural infection or vaccine). That will probably take at the minimum another year, most likely more as too many people simply refuse to get vaccinated. We will therefore have to wait until they all catch covid so they can gain some form of immunity. Thankfully, we have the passport system that will allow society to function until that happens.

Indeed, this passport system not only allows for businesses to stay open despite rising covid cases, but it also protects the vaccinated from unvaccinated individuals who are potential walking bioweapons spraying delta particles with their every breath. I know that in my case, I was more comfortable working out at the gym today knowing that every single person in there was vaccinated and thus much less likely to be spreading covid.

 

[Anna Bijou]

I think it gives a false impression of safety and I think it is a form of bullying people into conforming.

OK so the passport is required to go to the restaurant or movies. But mysteriously packed buses with zero distancing is not.

They're required at restaurants but mysteriously not at corner stores.

Required at the casino and the botanical garden. But libraries and museums are exempt.

Also exempt : weddings, funerals, spas and saunas, hair salons, dog training and massage therapy. Required for outdoor canoeing. But not fishing and hunting.

Does that make any sense?


They are using this to force people to do what they believe is best. But as far as it having any kind of impact on safety in public spaces, the passport is useless.

The governments are loving the division on the question of mandatory vaccination. It has us going along with whatever they decide because we feel so strongly about people who are not getting vaccinated. If this is going to force them to comply and force them to do what we believe they should do - then let's do it, we say.

There hasn't even been a conversation about what it could mean going forward. What is really at stake and what the risks are. Nothing. Yes Master, you know best.

I'm vaccinated but I believe that people have the right to make decisions about their own health. By strong arming and denying them the right to do so, the situation is not resolved but actually causes even more distrust.

The thing that has started to bother me is how pro vaccination people respond to people who are not 100% on board. This superior attitude, with ridiculing, condescending reactions. Immediate dismissal of another point of view. Because of the portion of antivaxxers that are conspiracy theory nutters, we've decided that any concerns or points of views that challenge vaccination, is not worthy of considering or addressing. I'm getting uncomfortable about the lack of critical thinking about this.

Vaccination is one thing.
Forced vaccination by government is another.
Government vaccination status and tracking documents, or passports, is another.