Nice la Presse Article on XO this morning

[Julia Sky]

Alcohol is not criminalized but you can only buy strong alcohol at SAQ and restaurants selling alcohol need to pay for government permit. If your activity is decriminalized it must be regulated as any other economic activity. You must provide documentation (ledgers etc) that reflects your cash flow and the buisiness expenses and fill all the tax documents required for small non-incorporated business. You would also need to pay GST/QST if your activity exceeds $30K/year. For this you need to charge your clients GST/QST on top of your price. There is no way that you can avoid government control and regulations that are mandatory for any small businesses (permits, health issues etc). How you can justify that you can be free from it while hairdresser working at his salon is not. What I am trying to say is that decriminalization and legalization is the same thing.
Government would also push you to move away from pure cash operation and you should be able to accept interact and credit cards payments.

Alcohol and weed are legalized, not decriminalized, case in point. They are not the same thing.

Escorts already have to pay taxes. In fact you're going to shit yourself when you learn there's already a business code for escorting specifically!!

We dont charge the tax on top of our rate - it is factored in. The same way plenty of professionals don't explicitly charge it but it's factored in the price.

Also many businesses aren't regulated in this manner. There are general laws that apply to everyone, but not every single industry has industry specific mandatory rules...

 

[EagerBeaver]

I’m not an attorney but I’ve followed enough US cases similar to this one. See my post regarding JuliesNYC. The conventional wisdom is that the XO group reopens once all this gets resolved. It’s usually about the Benjamin’s (or the Canadian equivalent), and the prosecutors will want to see some CAD forked over.

These types of cases pop up in the US quite a bit, and in vast majority the penalties are paid ….and the owners regroup with the next iteration.

It’s mind boggling the paranoia around clients numbers being investigated, etc. Cue the movie scene: “I am shocked to learn pimping and prostitution were taking place!”

I agree with you and that's exactly what I was suggesting. I could be wrong but it's my sense of what will happen.

 

[Julia Sky]

I honestly can't believe this thread has now reached 40 pages

 

[EagerBeaver]

I honestly can't believe this thread has now reached 40 pages

Probably a 5 day record for MERB. Just a guess. I don't recall any threads more explosive that did not get shut down. I am not suggesting that this thread should be shut down, but usually in the past threads that had heavy debate eventually did for one reason or another. I think the XO story fostered debate on many different issues surrounding how agencies operate, and it's a good thing to have these debates. In my estimation this thread has had healthy and thoughtful debate and contributions from MANY posters including the SPs, the clients and even an "anonymous" agency owner.

 

[CLOUD 500]

proxenetism? You need a phd to read this board now!

Another word for pimping.

 

[AnthonyAnderson]

proxenetism? You need a phd to read this board now!

We need one to understand what an @interferon is, too

(in French we say "proxénétisme" in everyday speak)

 

[PatHibulaire]

I honestly can't believe this thread has now reached 40 pages

Yes it is a long thread. I hope clients take the time to reflect on their « hobby ». Sex work is no ordinary business. I'm not getting an haircut or having a tooth treatment. I'm engaging in what most people consider to be the most intimate interaction between 2 people. As a client, I am very grateful to the SP's that I see and I always treat them with great respect.

 

[Flabert]

We don't know what the evidence is and we don't know what is easy to prove or not. What the law states is:

Benefiting from Sexual Services (Material Benefit - s. 286.2): It is an indictable offence, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, to receive a financial or material benefit knowing it is derived from the commission of a sexual service offence (such as someone buying sex).

Inducing/Procuring (s. 286.3): It is illegal to induce, recruit, or direct a person to offer sexual services, including directing someone into the sex trade.

Advertising Sexual Services (s. 286.4): It is a criminal offence to knowingly advertise the sale of sexual services, such as online, in print, or through other media.

Just because 10 years is a possible penalty doesn't mean any of them will get any jail time. It's all to be determined in Court. Witnesses fold, don't cooperate, do not show. Disappear. Happens all the time. And then the prosecutor bails. Look at what happened with the witnesses in the Canada Hockey case. They were awful, and the case collapsed.

Awful is one way to put it. The crown could not do the right thing because of the optics (white privileged hockey player abusing a woman) but it backfired because her story was mostly false (so no credibility could be attributed to her according to the female judge).

It was impossible to say the plaintiff (we can’t legally use victim anymore) had not fabricated every event she alleged happened. Even trivial details turned out to be false.

I understand the desire to look good but this set back real victims. Lesson applies everytime, do not lie.

The one thing that was real is the cheque she cashed.

 

[Flabert]

Yes it is a long thread. I hope clients take the time to reflect on their « hobby ». Sex work is no ordinary business. I'm not getting an haircut or having a tooth treatment. I'm engaging in what most people consider to be the most intimate interaction between 2 people. As a client, I am very grateful to the SP's that I see and I always treat them with great respect.

Yes, we want this industry to be healthy and positive for all involved most importantly the providers. True first responders!

 

[RobertNYC]

Just read this report this morning and to be honest this is one of the biggest reasons I don't like dealing with agencies. There are too many risky variables. Their website is still live too (will probably get shut down in the coming months) but yeah stay away from this place

I can’t speak for Canadian prosecutors, but I don’t think they give a rats ass about the website itself. And I don’t think owners could deny they ever ran an escort business without being laughed out of courtroom. I’ve seen homepages stay up post busts in US. It appears XO attorneys haven’t advised the owners to take it down, and that’s telling in a way. That could imply confidence and presumed holes in prosecutors case, maybe.

Again, prosecutors aren’t targeting clients so I’m not sure of your reluctance to use agencies, at least from an LE perspective.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Awful is one way to put it.

Predicting witness success and failure in Court is something you do not fully understand until you have lived it. Sometimes you prep a party witness and think they will be great, but then they fold like a cheap suitcase after a few slightly difficult questions. Other times you think, despite your best preparation, that the party witness will fail, and instead they surprise you.

We are talking about non party witnesses, of course, but the prosecution will have the chance to vet and prep them just as in the Hockey Canada case. And just as I do with party witnesses.

The 2 best party witness testimonies I ever heard were completely unexpected. One came in a civil trial I had in January of this year. I was certain we were going down after I prepared the client for his testimony. He could not remember anything, was listless, and worst of all, was seemingly disinterested. It was so bad that I had to bring him back for a second day of preparation which went only slightly better. I told one of the other attorneys at my firm that there was not enough lipstick in the world to cover this pig. I mentally prepared for going down in flames.

Then we got to Court and a funny thing happened. He listened to the other side testify. It stoked him, fired him up. When I put him on the stand he was spitting fire. During cross-examination he turned around questions he was being asked on the questioner in a way that showed the questions to be ridiculous. He ate the cross-examination up, in a way I never saw. I almost could not believe what I was hearing, because I had not heard it in 2 days of preparation, EVER. It's called Courtroom Magic. I have seen it, and when you help make the magic, even in some very small way, it's like having an orgasm from sex.

Unfortunately, it does not happen often and sometimes you are on the wrong side of the Magic. And when you are on the other side of the Magic, instead of leaving Court feeling enthralled, you leave Court feeling sick to your stomach and wanting to vomit. I have experienced both sides of it many times, and in many different degrees of success or failure. But back in January I was on the right side of it in a big way. We won, and I had my Lincoln Lawyer moment. Maybe for the year or maybe for the rest of my career. But I will take it!!!!

 

[RobertNYC]

Predicting witness success and failure in Court is something you do not fully understand until you have lived it. Sometimes you prep a party witness and think they will be great, but then they fold like a cheap suitcase after a few slightly difficult questions. Other times you think, despite your best preparation, that the party witness will fail, and instead they surprise you.

We are talking about non party witnesses, of course, but the prosecution will have the chance to vet and prep them just as in the Hockey Canada case. And just as I do with party witnesses.

The 2 best party witness testimonies I ever heard were completely unexpected. One came in a civil trial I had in January of this year. I was certain we were going down after I prepared the client for his testimony. He could not remember anything, was listless, and worst of all, was seemingly disinterested. It was so bad that I had to bring him back for a second day of preparation which went only slightly better. I told one of the other attorneys at my firm that there was not enough lipstick in the world to cover this pig. I mentally prepared for going down in flames.

Then we got to Court and a funny thing happened. He listened to the other side testify. It stoked him, fired him up. When I put him on the stand he was spitting fire. During cross-examination he turned around questions he was being asked on the questioner in a way that showed the questions to be ridiculous. He ate the cross-examination up, in a way I never saw. I almost could not believe what I was hearing, because I had not heard it in 2 days of preparation, EVER. It's called Courtroom Magic. I have seen it, and when you help make the magic, even in some very small way, it's like having an orgasm from sex.

Unfortunately, it does not happen often and sometimes you are on the wrong side of the Magic. And when you are on the other side of the Magic, instead of leaving Court feeling enthralled, you leave Court feeling sick to your stomach and wanting to vomit. I have experienced both sides of it many times, and in many different degrees of success or failure. But back in January I was on the right side of it in a big way. We won, and I had my Lincoln Lawyer moment. Maybe for the year or maybe for the rest of my career. But I will take it!!!!

Great analysis and perspective, EB. And good for you on case!

I don’t know very much about Canadian law, but it’s possible this case never makes it to a courtroom. In cases such as this, I think there is a sensitivity to owners threatening to reveal prominent clients, including law enforcement and politicians. This has the markings of a case that could be resolved well before then, it seems.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Great analysis and perspective, EB. And good for you on case!

I don’t know very much about Canadian law, but it’s possible this case never makes it to a courtroom. This has the markings of a case that could be resolved well before then, it seems.

I agree. I doubt it will go to trial and more likely is a resolution along the lines of what you suggested- "restitution" of the "avails or proceeds of prostitution" in some amount to the Crown. Of course, if the defendants do not have any money, then it becomes a bit more problematic.

A trial in a case like this would be interesting, though.

 

[minutemenX]

Alcohol and weed are legalized, not decriminalized, case in point. They are not the same thing.

Escorts already have to pay taxes. In fact you're going to shit yourself when you learn there's already a business code for escorting specifically!!

We dont charge the tax on top of our rate - it is factored in. The same way plenty of professionals don't explicitly charge it but it's factored in the price.

Also many businesses aren't regulated in this manner. There are general laws that apply to everyone, but not every single industry has industry specific mandatory rules...

you obviously do not understand what the sale tax is (GST/QST). You charge it on behalf of the government. It has nothing to do with your personal income.

 

[Flabert]

you obviously do not understand what the sale tax is (GST/QST). You charge it on behalf of the government. It has nothing to do with your personal income.

You are mostly right but there are exceptions for small businesses (less than 30,000$ in gross revenues) in Canada. I doubt most agencies would fly under that 30,000$ limit (and to be fair you have to be well under it not to collect GST because you will be audited if you are close to 30k) and hard to imagine CRA would believe that an agency is not a business but that each individual worker is its actual business and some go under some over 30k. The rules to be an independent operator are quite stringent and would not likely apply to an agency (you need to control when, where and how you work, how much you charge and engage your own tools vs using the tools of the employer). You also often need to show that you can and would split your time between different channels depending on their need and that those customers agree to that.

 

[Flabert]

Predicting witness success and failure in Court is something you do not fully understand until you have lived it. Sometimes you prep a party witness and think they will be great, but then they fold like a cheap suitcase after a few slightly difficult questions. Other times you think, despite your best preparation, that the party witness will fail, and instead they surprise you.

We are talking about non party witnesses, of course, but the prosecution will have the chance to vet and prep them just as in the Hockey Canada case. And just as I do with party witnesses.

The 2 best party witness testimonies I ever heard were completely unexpected. One came in a civil trial I had in January of this year. I was certain we were going down after I prepared the client for his testimony. He could not remember anything, was listless, and worst of all, was seemingly disinterested. It was so bad that I had to bring him back for a second day of preparation which went only slightly better. I told one of the other attorneys at my firm that there was not enough lipstick in the world to cover this pig. I mentally prepared for going down in flames.

Then we got to Court and a funny thing happened. He listened to the other side testify. It stoked him, fired him up. When I put him on the stand he was spitting fire. During cross-examination he turned around questions he was being asked on the questioner in a way that showed the questions to be ridiculous. He ate the cross-examination up, in a way I never saw. I almost could not believe what I was hearing, because I had not heard it in 2 days of preparation, EVER. It's called Courtroom Magic. I have seen it, and when you help make the magic, even in some very small way, it's like having an orgasm from sex.

Unfortunately, it does not happen often and sometimes you are on the wrong side of the Magic. And when you are on the other side of the Magic, instead of leaving Court feeling enthralled, you leave Court feeling sick to your stomach and wanting to vomit. I have experienced both sides of it many times, and in many different degrees of success or failure. But back in January I was on the right side of it in a big way. We won, and I had my Lincoln Lawyer moment. Maybe for the year or maybe for the rest of my career. But I will take it!!!!

Have you read the transcripts of the hockey case? The plaintiff’s facts collapsed from simple questions the prosecution had a duty (in Canada) to check before continuing with charges.

The video of the event contradicted her story, her texts contradicted her story, her witnesses contradicted her story and then even her story contradicted her story. It is rare for a plaintiff to get the “this witness has lied so much that the jury can disregard the entirety of her testimony” stamp from the judge. She lied about trivial as well as damning facts and it was not just a memory issue (which you can reasonable invoke in court).

Canada is not like the US - the crown has advantages (can appeal a non-guilty cases and plaintiff background is even more off limit) but judges are more on the side of the defendant (often because they are not elected) and you almost never see courthouse magic. It comes down more to sheer courthouse boredom

 

[EagerBeaver]

Have you read the transcripts of the hockey case? The plaintiff’s facts collapsed from simple questions the prosecution had a duty (in Canada) to check before continuing with charges.

The video of the event contradicted her story, her texts contradicted her story, her witnesses contradicted her story and then even her story contradicted her story. It is rare for a plaintiff to get the “this witness has lied so much that the jury can disregard the entirety of her testimony” stamp from the judge. She lied about trivial as well as damning facts and it was not just a memory issue (which you can reasonable invoke in court).

Canada is not like the US - the crown has advantages (can appeal a non-guilty cases and plaintiff background is even more off limit) but judges are more on the side of the defendant (often because they are not elected) and you almost never see courthouse magic. It comes down more to sheer courthouse boredom

I am aware the Prosecution should not have presented the witness- IN HINDSIGHT. I am not here to excuse them, but to suggest that sometimes things get away from you and a witness does worse than expected. Or better. Also, you do not bail on a witness just because there are contradictions in her story or with her story and that of other witnesses. Only lightweight cowards do that. Sometimes you try to work around those things and can, and sometimes you have no choice but to do those things, and hope for the best. And sometimes it just does not go in well.

I am gonna read between the lines here and say that the lower level prosecutors who tried the case did so on orders from up above because the case was very political. The person who gave the orders may not have known or else fully cared about the problems with the case. As a young, low level associate, many times I had a file thrown on my desk with orders to go try a case that was a piece of shit and was a predestined loser. It was so I could take the loss and not the partner. Shit flows downhill, Flabert, not uphill. And I think the higher ups did not appreciate or else did not care about all the problems with the case. They also get to sit back and blame the low level prosecutors who tried the shit case. This is how it works in this business.

 

[jmioffe]

I agree with your conclusion that women have more power in the transactional aspect, but not as to your reasoning. I am no longer active as a client (as another poster has already mentioned), and haven't been in 7-8 years. During my prime years which were approximately 2000-2017, I was primarily motivated by a powerful libido. I frequently overpaid whatever was deemed the market rate, often felt empty afterwards, but nevertheless repeated the process because the libido was simply too powerful. I always did what I thought was necessary to make the woman I was seeing comfortable including buying gifts and booking longer dates. It was an addiction in a physical sense, although it never reached the point where it caused me any financial harm. I always stayed in my lane financially.

What happened to me is what will eventually happen to all of you. I got old, developed health issues, and the libido faded. It's actually faded to the point where I have even given up the SB sites I had dabbled in for the past however many years. I lost the desire. I do not feel any sense of loss, however. I am actually slightly relieved that the libido doesn't compel me to do it any more. I never would have imagined that I would be comfortable without sex being part of my life, but I am. It almost seemed to define me at one point, but now it's not a part of my life any more. I suppose it is since I am still here, but in the business sense, it is long gone.

Wow, I remember reading your reviews when you were still active. Two decades and you're out? Age 15 to 35? Or 30 to 50?

I'm curious because I've also slowed down. My last visits were in 2022, though I have come to visit Montreal several times since then.

Why do you still participate here?

 

[EagerBeaver]

Wow, I remember reading your reviews when you were still active. Two decades and you're out? Age 15 to 35? Or 30 to 50?

I'm curious because I've also slowed down. My last visits were in 2022, though I have come to visit Montreal several times since then.

Why do you still participate here?

I am in my 60s, but have health issues now that have wrecked me. The biggest one being high blood pressure and pills that seriously, seriously seriously limpen the penis to say the very least. I would like to get off them but that will probably never happen.

Why do I participate here? Sad to say, but boredom, and amusement on something I once was a part of.

 

[RobertNYC]

I am in my 60s, but have health issues now that have wrecked me. The biggest one being high blood pressure and pills that seriously, seriously seriously limpen the penis to say the very least. I would like to get off them but that will probably never happen.

Why do I participate here? Sad to say, but boredom, and amusement on something I once was a part of.

Don’t leave EB. You’re always worth a read and how else will we get CT pizza reviews? I also enjoy your somewhat familiarity with the NYC escort scene, particularly during the golden era.

Did you not mention one time (and forgive me if I’m confusing you with another Merbite) you were booking appointments but just never FS because of the health limitations you described?

As I get older (and you have a few years on me), I’m enjoying full contact strip clubs as much as escorts. Easier on the wallet, a longer lasting evening, candy store selection with interesting chat and you can leave happy with a good lap dance grind. Many are rip offs, the underground in NYC is good but my fav is in central Jersey. Throw in Hooters in nearby East Brunswick and a guy has a good evening.

Your transition away from booking appointments without sour grapes or woe is me is really admirable.