Long term arrangements

[Christian32]

On seeking... 30% are ex or active SP or MP.
60% claim that "they are not an escort"... but by definition (they want to be paid for their time)... they are.
Maybe the remaining 10% are just looking to date with minimal compensation.

 

[CoolAmadeus]

Good to know. Escorts aren't women. (Or real women?) Like unwomen? Less-than-women?

Got it.

You really took it all wrong... If you knew me, you would know I meant exactly the opposite. I meant "escorts" as the job in itself as opposed to "women" as human beings.

But you are right up to a point, men using escorts, massage "therapists", and sugar babies are not something we should be proud of, definitely. And I chose the word "using" on purpose, because in the end, it is what we are doing. Unfortunately the earth won't stop turning on itself, but some of us are still trying to make it better by not just "taking", but "giving" as well (and I'm not necessarily talking about money, of course).

This is a subject with so many potential personal points of view! If you are open to that, I would love to offer you a coffee or a drink, and openly discuss about it in person, in public, like two adults willing to share their opinion without preconceived judgement. I'm sure it would be very interresting for both of us!

CA

 

[EagerBeaver]

I find your post ridiculous. Of course I also find the Long-Term Arrangement subset of sex work ridiculous.

It is marketing, and a different delivery system. One can’t help but think of clear cola, which was regular cola without the coloring additatives.

Why Crystal Pepsi Was A Flop - Mashed

The story of why Crystal Pepsi failed is a weird one that involves consumer anxiety, a bit of corporate sabotage, and Nazis (for real).

www.mashed.com

Coca-Cola Created Tab Clear to Destroy Crystal Pepsi

And it worked

bettermarketing.pub

The very good writer Chuck Klosterman said that selling pet rocks in the 1970s was marketing to stupid people. Selling clear cola was marketing to stupid people while convincing those same people that they are smarter than those drinking the same product, minus the food coloring.

One cannot help but think also of the games at the County Fair where you pay to usually hook a prize with a a metal object that could be purchased elsewhere at a cost less than the amount you paid to play several games. Some of the prizes appear to be more desirable than others. Part of the fun is the unknown and the perception that skill is involved in some way. If you really analyze it, the fun is gone.

The problem I have with your post is that you look upon the Seeking Arrangement ladies as little bunnies capable of being taken advantage of. The Seeking Arrangement system is a marketing mechanism for the group of sex workers and johns who choose to participate in it. The primary marketing is conducted by those savvy ladies who are sugar babies. While some of us have contempt and bemusement for those fellow johns drinking clear cola (perhaps I should switch the drink example to kool-aid), let’s not forget who the marketers really are here. And don’t forget how many of those “little bunnies” as you perceive them consider themselves superior to other sex workers.

The only thing I like about the Long-Term Arrangement scene is that it makes sex work harder to prosecute in the U.S., since it is closer to legal dating with benefits than it is to statutorily illegal prostitution. And when you finally show the idiotic public the color grey, they don’t view the world in terms of grey and white as much.

What you are trying to say is that Seeking Arrangement is a more socially acceptable and legal form of sex work. I agree on one level, but I really believe you cannot characterize all the women on SA as traditional sex workers because some are seeking non-sexual or non-traditional arrangements, and others are seeking quasi-sexual arrangements (like pics and videos), which in that sense makes those particular SA users more similar to OnlyFans. I have discovered on Tinder that many women on there are using a Tinder profile to link or advertise an OF site. The best thing we can say is SA and OF provide more legal/more socially acceptable forum alternatives to traditional sex work models.

On my Tinder date last night, my date informed me she was on Seeking Arrangement for a year as well as Tinder, and that she had always viewed Tinder as more of a hook-up site than SA. I was very surprised to hear this comment but, at the same time, it is very clear that many woman use all of these sites interchangeably for the same marketing purposes which could be the SA model, the OF model, or a more traditional dating platform model.

 

[EagerBeaver]

EB, lady sure sounds like a savvy businesswoman who understands marketing. Good for her.

I don't think so. She is more of a regular businesswoman than a sex worker. She works for a local company that provides mental health services to "at risk" youths, and also has her own self care business. From what she told me she never had a single date on Seeking, but did on Tinder, and that resulted in a relationship which she told me crashed and burned. She is 25 years old and lives with her parents, mainly because the income from her job and her side business isn't enough. She is seeking a better paying 9-5 job. So in other words she sounds like more of the average of what is on SA that I have met- women struggling economically to achieve independence and probably open to an arrangement down the road. I didn't push any envelope with her because I wasn't paying for her company. Anyway, she is very attractive and very cool, we had a nice 3 hour dinner and we will see where it goes. I have another SA girl I am seeing as well, on and off, for a period of a few years. She is 24 but still in college. She is more of the hook up type date although we usually have dinner first.

The economics of the costs of living for a minority woman in Connecticut are fairly brutal. $45,000 a year jobs just aren't going to cut it and this is quickly realized by your semi high maintenance woman, like this one, who needs her nails done, her hair done, maybe braided, and etc. That's where an arrangement can really help them breathe financially.

 

[Ducon]

You really took it all wrong... If you knew me, you would know I meant exactly the opposite.

When you write something wrong, have the honesty to admit " I wrote that wrong " instead of " You really took it all wrong " .

 

[EagerBeaver]

Even this Florida judge recognizes the demands placed upon the modern Sugar Baby, who juggles her schedule between her husband and her sugar daddy, and has no time for jury duty.

Woman who cited ‘sugar daddy’ to get out of Nikolas Cruz jury receives $8,000 a month

The judge initially appeared confused by the woman’s claim

www.independent.co.uk

Play the damn video. It is hilarious, and the judge is hot.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512029927067037706

That's really funny. When I started the video I thought the Judge was the SB as it's a young hot Judge. She didn't seem to get the economic struggle at first.

I am surprised that such an important trial was entrusted to such a young, albeit hot Judge. I can tell you that although there are many female judges serving in the Connecticut Superior Court, I have never seen one as young and hot as this one.

 

[Anna Bijou]

The problem I have with your post is that you look upon the Seeking Arrangement ladies as little bunnies capable of being taken advantage of. The Seeking Arrangement system is a marketing mechanism for the group of sex workers and johns who choose to participate in it. The primary marketing is conducted by those savvy ladies who are sugar babies. While some of us have contempt and bemusement for those fellow johns drinking clear cola (perhaps I should switch the drink example to kool-aid), let’s not forget who the marketers really are here. And don’t forget how many of those “little bunnies” as you perceive them consider themselves superior to other sex workers.

I don't really understand some of what you're writing. I think you misunderstood what I was saying and also inserted a lot of things I did not say or even believe. lol

There's sugaring and there's the bastardized version of sugaring.

I think that the "John" mindset towards a sb that is not an escort, is young and expecting an actual SR creates predatory situations.

I don't think of all SB's as 'little bunnies' but I have read enough stories to know that a significant number of girls who first join these sites are extremely naive, inexperience and always at a disadvantage in negotiating with a man with much more power, and experience. And "John's" thinking like "John's" when chasing these girls is predatory, period.

If he's trying to get to the 'new ones' because they haven't figured out they should charge more and he's looking to take advantage of that.. My man, he's a predator. So yeah, I am going to call out that it's predatory to use the age/experience advantage over an 18 year old whose brain hasn't even fully developed yet. (not fully developped until 25!)

A lot of men are not SD, not interested in sugar relationships but think it's a way to get more for less.

The types of SB men from that category are chasing after are either
- amateurs who don't know they should ask for more money
- amateurs with so much internalized whorephobia that think calling themselves sb makes them better than prostitutes/escorts
- amateurs in desperate situations
- amateurs who are very young, naive and easy to manipulate
- amateurs who aren't transactional, assertive and haven't learned to set boundaries (ie not 'hookerized')

If that's what someone is doing on SA, sorry but that's not a Sugar daddy.


I'm not imagining this, I've heard the stories.

And this thread has so much misogyny ooof

 

[Anna Bijou]

On seeking... 30% are ex or active SP or MP.
60% claim that "they are not an escort"... but by definition (they want to be paid for their time)... they are.
Maybe the remaining 10% are just looking to date with minimal compensation.

What do you think sugaring involves? Free unlimited dates, sex and emotional labour from 19 year olds? Of course they want compensation!

So if you see 90% of girls on SA as escorts, what you're saying is you're just trying to find a cheaper escort? Or am I misunderstanding?You shouldn't call yourself an SD if that's the case.

 

[Frozen]

Fracking HILARIOUS!!!!!

 

[Fradi]

What do you think sugaring involves?

A different type/ level of paid fantasy
The SB is making believe she is not an Escort/ Prostitute because of course she is better than that.
She is just “ dating” with a bit of well deserved compensation that always goes to good causes like university tuition rent and having the lifestyle she deserves.

The John makes believe that he has “ game“ and he won her by being the selected one for his intelligence exceptional negotiating powers and of course he is a stud and is not surprised at all that he was selected over all the other suitors.
He probably really believes that it was all this and not the size of his wallet.

If it works for them great they are both consenting adults and like anything in life is full of predators and manipulators and they need to do their research and be smart enough not to be a victim just like everything else in life.
Now is there a possibility that they can have a relationship that they are both happy with and both get what they want and even become close or friends of course there is just like an SP and a client can have a great relationship, probably rare but not impossible.
The thing is everyone wants to be wanted by someone, pick what ever works for you.
Obviously I don’t think it would work for me and I won’t waste my time trying.

 

[EagerBeaver]

If he's trying to get to the 'new ones' because they haven't figured out they should charge more and he's looking to take advantage of that.. My man, he's a predator. So yeah, I am going to call out that it's predatory to use the age/experience advantage over an 18 year old whose brain hasn't even fully developed yet. (not fully developped until 25!)

New SBs could be anywhere from 18-30 and up. It is true that some of them do not know their value, but those are offset by an equal number of SBs who overestimate their value. I had 2 who were 18 years old ask me for $500 for an intro platonic date. That is naive, cutting in the other direction. I also recall another one who wanted $600 for a blow job. She texted me persistently and I told her I would give her $300. She then kept texting me thinking I would eventually increase my offer. I didn't, and did not pursue anything with her. If she was a 10 per center I might have given her what she was asking for. She wasn't. These kinds of naive negotiations take place with newbies who have crazy low and crazy high expectations. You are only throwing out one very small piece of a big pie, and making unwarranted conclusions. If someone is extremely hot, a high demand has never stopped me.

There are all types of women on there, naive and savvy, knowing their value and not knowing their value. But as Patron mentioned earlier they do view SB status as acceptable morally, socially and legally, and create a distinction between SB on the one hand, and "hooker", on the other. Many actually have profiles affirmatively disclaiming that they are prostitutes, but they will provide sexual services for compensation after 2-3 dates. The 2-3 dates, in their minds, de-hookerizes. Whether the distinction and the logic behind it is valid or not is irrelevant, and neither you nor Patron seem to understand that. It simply is what it is, which is factual.

 

[Anna Bijou]

I have made similar arguments about old men with little experience as Johns becoming Sugar Daddies and being taken advantage of by women who they don’t know how to say no to, especially if some of the women lie about needing money for sick family members and pets. The mind often deteriorates quite badly after 70, especially the male mind.

Most everyone dismisses my concerns.

I am skeptical that the 18-24 year old young lady cannot research on the internet what a typical escort earns, and for what sex acts condoms are used for. If she prefers escorting over Sugaring, she can join an agency if she is in Canada, or set up a website and operate as an independent if she is in Canada or the U.S. Seeking Arrangement promotional videos suggest very high prices, so I am not sure where exactly the supposed misinformation is.

What do you propose as the solution to the problems you believe to exist?

I never said they're not capable. When I was 18-24 I would have been horrified at the thought of escorting. For many girls, sb is a choice because they wouldn't consider being an Escort. The appeal of a SD is having a single person with whom there's more of relationship vs different men as an Escort.

Can they research? Yeah, that goes for just about anything and even grown ass adults don't research anything before making important decisions. Lots of people think they know it all already.

A girl who is in the middle of exams or at home taking care of kids and totally broke a few days before rent is due isn't going to have all her sweet time to research.

If a man who's experienced decides to take advantage, in your view that's just too bad for her because she didn't research? Because she doesn't yet know she's not supposed to trust?

It doesn't matter what the suggestion is in promotional videos. You put an 18-24 in negotiations with a 50 year old, do you think she has much of a chance? The power imbalance is enormous.

So I don't have a solution. I never claimed I did. But if a man has the very minimum amount of decency, he's not taking advantage and he's paying what he knows is fair. The reality is that many aren't decent.

I'm sorry but reading some of what I've read just gave me a visceral reaction. I've read so many disturbing, heartbreaking stories from sb (and inexperienced, young escorts) to not react to this.


Do men truly not realize the power imbalance and the real implications that a 18-25 young person (both genders) do not have brains that function the same way adults' brains do?

 

[EagerBeaver]

And this is how she took care of her Sugar Daddies:

Stepbrother gets his cock hard with the help of horny stepsister

XVIDEOS Stepbrother gets his cock hard with the help of horny stepsister free

www.xvideos.com

 

[Fradi]

The definition of a prostitute is someone who engages in a sexual act for payment, I didn’t see any exception being made for a Sugar Baby.
This is exactly the reason I avoid this type of arrangement I neither have the patience nor am I impressed by their attitude that they believe they are better than escorts and are doing selective dating and that they are not prostitutes. At the end of the day they fuck for money or other forms of payment pure and simple.
Give me the gorgeous SP any day, no games ( except the ones you want ) no BS.

 

[EagerBeaver]

What Sugar Babies are doing is considered "socially acceptable" especially in the USA
so if you are interested in having female companionship that includes a sexual component it is objectively foolish to limit oneself to escorts- and also very dangerous if you value your career. On the other hand using SA is pretty safe and generally nobody gets busted. It's delusional to believe that the pool of SBs is the same as the escort pool if you haven't experienced it. That is reality and whether these women are hypocritical in what they think is completely irrelevant to that reality, so it's pointless to keep bringing it up. Unless one needs a reason to justify why he is ignoring the vast majority of the market.

I personally think the real reason why there is 10 to 1 or maybe 20-1 hot SBs to escorts is perceived social acceptability and personal safety, so nothing else means shit. SBs perceive they can control their own safety to a much greater degree than most escorts, and it's naive to think otherwise. This means safety both from LE and from clients.

It's all about the pool of attractive women that is out there and if you guys choose to believe the pools are exactly the same, you have checked out of reality. SA wouldn't exist if this were true.

 

[Fradi]

Sorry but I have seen photographs of SB and there are many that I wouldn’t even buy a coffee for while the majority of SP at reputable agencies and Merb advertiser Indys are actually gorgeous.
Safety I personally think I am much safer with an SP as they do not know who I am what my name is where I live and are not privy to anything personal about me. I would hate to think what a SB might do if they get pissed off at you when they have an abundance of personal information about you.
If you are single and unattached, retired etc… not a big deal but if you are working, married, have a significant other they could easily make things very complicated and uncomfortable.
The legal aspect yes in the US you are probably safer seeing a SB than an escort, here LE doesn’t seem to give a shit when seeing an escort as long as there are no under age issues or neighbours are not complaining.
Again to each their own if that is what works for you great.

 

[Anna Bijou]

SBs perceive they can control their own safety to a much greater degree than most escorts, and it's naive to think otherwise. This means safety both from LE and from clients.

They may perceive they can control their own safety but honestly it's the opposite. Escorts have blacklists, networks and ways to learn about safety.

SB's are mostly on their own and often don't know anything about screening. They are often at a disadvantage dealing with a man with far more experience. The risk for sexual assault, getting scammed or taken advantage of is way higher than it is for most escorts, other than perhaps a complete newbie going into it on her own without any research.

Reddit has a sub where there is a non-stop stream of stories like that. Sick, sad, sickening stories. Lots of predators in the pool of SD's. Because they can find easy prey much easier.

Also, in Canada it's legal to sell sexual services so LE is not any more a concern or risk for escorts than it is for SB's.

 

[EagerBeaver]

SB's are mostly on their own and often don't know anything about screening.

Not true. Almost every single new SB I have seen in the last 2 years has either asked me to use SA video chat function or Face Time as a condition precedent to meeting. The use of these functions by SBs has already been well discussed in this thread, as has identity verification.

As a matter of interest, do you Face Time or video chat with new clients?

Reddit has a sub where there is a non-stop stream of stories like that. Sick, sad, sickening stories. Lots of predators in the pool of SD's. Because they can find easy prey much easier.

Your post above purports to generalize based on some "bad client" forums. Like it's a news flash that there are some bad apples in any large population using any service?????????? There is also probably a Reddit sub-forum about SBs who have robbed/swindled SDs. So what? Does that mean all SBs are thieves, any more than you suggest most SDs are sexual predators?

The point/agenda of your posts in this thread seem to be to "shame" users away from using SD websites. Nobody who is intelligent and plays by the rules is going to have any shame, nor should they.

 

[Anna Bijou]

Not true. Almost every single new SB I have seen in the last 2 years has either asked me to use SA video chat function or Face Time as a condition precedent to meeting. The use of these functions by SBs has already been well discussed in this thread, as has identity verification.

It's really good that you haven't met sb that fit that description but it does not mean that what I'm referring to doesn't happen or isn't a problem.

I believe you've also said you had to tell an sb she probably shouldn't use her real name last week, that you've met very naive SB's and that you've refused to go through screening using the method they preferred but pushed for facetime instead - which you've admitted doesn't protect from scams - in your case. Or from violence - in her case.

So I'm not sure what you're trying to say tbh.

As a matter of interest, do you Face Time or video chat with new clients?

As a matter of interest, what would be the purpose or reason for me to FaceTime? I don't post or share pictures of my face ever for privacy reasons, so facetime would make no sense, especially since it doesn't actually add anything in terms of safety. I just run the risk of my face ending up online associated with Anna Bijou..

I can absolutely appreciate that FaceTime might make sense in terms of knowing what the sd/sb looks like and getting a better idea of compatibility. However it doesn't help with safety concerns in any way.


What I wrote originally was prompted by a tweet by a swer in the US who was saying that she met a sb at a bar. She offered to check a couple of SD the girl was supposed to meet, only to find they were both blacklisted across the board by multiple escorts. She was tweeting about it to let any sb know that they were always welcome to contact her and she'd happily verify if they had any reports or were blacklisted.

The fact is that bad clients who end up blacklisted and can no longer find any escorts willing to see them because of that reputation transition to calling themselves sd's. Suddenly they are enjoying a large pool of women who are completely unaware of their history, whether it's scamming, stealthing, assaulting, pushing boundaries, wasting time, etc.

FaceTime isn't going to do a single thing to keep a sb safe from those men.

Your post above purports to generalize based on some "bad client" forums. Like it's a news flash that there are some bad apples in any large population using any service?????????? There is also probably a Reddit sub-forum about SBs who have robbed/swindled SDs. So what? Does that mean all SBs are thieves, any more than you suggest most SDs are sexual predators?

I'm not sure why you are so defensive or completely mischaracterizing what I actually wrote. You literally have my comments quoted above your reply so I'm not sure how you came up with something completely different than what I wrote.

As far as reddit, the sub I'm referring to is actually for SB and SD, it's not an SB space to complain about SD's. I'd just like to say that a situation where a woman is raped by a man with a lot more power than her is not the equivalent of a situation where a wealthy man is scammed out of a few hundred dollars he was planning to spend.

The point/agenda of your posts in this thread seem to be to "shame" users away from using SD websites. Nobody who is intelligent and plays by the rules is going to have any shame, nor should they.

Agenda?

I'm not sure how you concluded that I'm shaming from my comments. I don't see where I wrote something that would be interpreted that way.

I think the SB/SD thing is complex because it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. The misunderstanding seems to be that I am making a general comment and lumping all sd's into the same basket, which I assure you I'm not. My views are actually the complete opposite of that, which is why I have these concerns to begin with.

Obviously there are genuine SD looking for a situation that fits into the actual definition of a sugar relationship. Those are not the men I'm concerned about. I'm concerned about the others who present themselves as legitimate but are predatory, scammers and scum.

There are men who have no clue or no interest in a sugar relationship and either looking for cheaper sex (no interest in any kind of ongoing relationship, just a fuck then on to the next one) or those who are predatory, deliberately targeting or trying to take advantage of, pressure, scam, rape, steal, etc.

Those are the "SD's" I talk about. I never generalized or claimed all SD's are like. So unless you're in the second category, you literally have no reason to find any of what I say unfair or untrue. These scum exist, period. And they do deserve to be shamed.


Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, so it doesn't make sense to get defensive and imagine me as a resentful hooker who just wants to shame all SD's for reasons that are unclear to me.

 

[EagerBeaver]

It's really good that you haven't met sb that fit that description but it does not mean that what I'm referring to doesn't happen or isn't a problem.

I believe you've also said you had to tell an sb she probably shouldn't use her real name last week, that you've met very naive SB's and that you've refused to go through screening using the method they preferred but pushed for facetime instead - which you've admitted doesn't protect from scams - in your case. Or from violence - in her case.

So I'm not sure what you're trying to say tbh.

You completely mischaracterized my post and do not understand how FT and VC are used. That lady asked me to do SA verification which involves turning over personal identifying information, not to her, but to third parties (date of birth, address). I proposed Face Time instead because most SBs ask to use that first for their safety. How does it promote their safety? Well I think it is common sense that you can possibly judge what you are going to meet by how that person talks and interacts with you on FT. And that is what SBs have told me. Is that foolproof? No. But it's absolutely no different than an attorney picking jurors. An attorney thinks the juror is right for the case, but is there a guarantee that the juror selected is right for the case? Of course not. And it's the same thing in Face Time or VC - you are asking questions but not to see if its the right person for the case, but the right person to go on a date with. Does the question and answer process or dialogue with the stranger ensure you have made a correct decision? Of course not, but in both cases if you have the power to read and judge people, then it may give you some information with which to make an informed decision.

The usefulness of jury selection/voire dire and FaceTime/Video Chat is common sense to almost all of the world except you, apparently.I think it's pretty obvious that if what you said is actually true, we would not have Video Chat on SA or jury selection, which has been around since the beginning of civilization. Perhaps you have no confidence in your own ability to read and judge people in a FaceTime chat, or in the ability of others to do so, but that doesn't entitle you to begrudge the ability of others who feel as though they can do so and derive comfort from doing so.