Does C-36 just made its first victime? MERB ITSELF?

[Halloween Mike]

Both the Liberals and the NDP voted against C-36

If they voted against, it did manage to pass anyway? WOW... thats weird. We need a better governement set up. If the liberals would be elected next time, could they remove this law??

A key principle in law is that ignorance of the law is not a valid defence... therefore the "I did not know" is not a valid argument.

May be right on case like "oh sorry i didn't saw the sign" but civilians are not sent a new code with laws to read every years... When a nonsense law pass, how can you expect people to know about it.

What part of the new law is likely to be challenged ?

I dunno... everything? It just make life harder for everybody. Its 2014, soon 2015 for christ sake... i have the impression we are going back to 1960...

 

[Siocnarf]

Unless you must have her wear a gas mask and fur boots while jerking you off and nothing else will do.

Is there an acronym for that? GMFBHJ?

 

[Siocnarf]

A key principle in law is that ignorance of the law is not a valid defence... therefore the "I did not know" is not a valid argument.

However, advertisers and third party have no idea what the law means. What is or isn't a ''sexual service'', what is ''advertisement'', what is a ''commercial enterprise'', etc. Shouldn't a key principle of the law also be that we can actually tell if we are breaking it or not?

Ignorance is no excuse, but I wonder to what extent they have to prove criminal intent. If I hire an escort for company and we have sex, I can say I did not expect to have sex, was pleasantly surprised and assumed it was free and not part of what I was planning. This is something I didn't asked for and it was not my intention to purchase sex.

 

[centaurus]

Welcome to the new Canada, the home of the free and the brave..... Not.

On a serious note, it was well understood that most of 'these services' offered were YMMV. Most of the times, I did not get 'these' services, especially from the Asian providers.

 

[BookerL]

Acronyms and Reasonable Doubt

Hi all

Acronym finder about meaning of "GFE"
http://www.acronymfinder.com/GFE.html

Sort results: alphabetical | rank ?

Rank Abbr. Meaning
GFE Good Faith Estimate (mortgage or loan related estimate of closing costs)
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GFE Government-Furnished Equipment
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GFE Grantmakers for Education
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GFE Girl Friend Experience
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GFE General Further Education (UK)
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GFE Graphical Forecast Editor
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GFE Google Front End (Google web server)
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GFE Gas Free Engineer
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GFE Group Format Error
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GFE Generic Front End
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GFE Gesellschaft für Forschung und Entwicklung (German)
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GFE Good for Everything
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GFE Groningen Fitness Test for the Elderly
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GFE Good Faith Edit (Wikimedia Foundation)
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GFE General Fund Exempt
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GFE Go Fat Early
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GFE Grooming Fabric Edge


In 1997, the Supreme Court of Canada, in R v Lifchus, suggested this explanation:

"The accused enters these proceedings presumed to be innocent. That presumption of innocence remains throughout the case until such time as the Crown has on the evidence put before you satisfied you beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty.

"What does the expression beyond a reasonable doubt mean? The term beyond a reasonable doubt has been used for a very long time and is a part of our history and traditions of justice. It is so engrained in our criminal law that some think it needs no explanation, yet something must be said regarding its meaning.

"A reasonable doubt is not an imaginary or frivolous doubt. It must not be based upon sympathy or prejudice. Rather, it is based on reason and common sense. It is logically derived from the evidence or absence of evidence.

"Even if you believe the accused is probably guilty or likely guilty, that is not sufficient. In those circumstances you must give the benefit of the doubt to the accused and acquit because the Crown has failed to satisfy you of the guilt of the accused beyond a reasonable doubt. On the other hand you must remember that it is virtually impossible to prove anything to an absolute certainty and the Crown is not required to do so. Such a standard of proof is impossibly high.

"In short if, based upon the evidence before the court, you are sure that the accused committed the offence you should convict since this demonstrates that you are satisfied of his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."


Interesting reasonable doubts equals acquittal acronyms does have many definitions to prove which one it is beyond a reasonable doubt will not be the easiest think to do !

And what was your understanding of the definition ?


Cheers


Booker

 

[BookerL]

I am not aware of how the Courts in Canada interpret the acronym "GFE" in the context of the escort industry



But then again, this was in the U.S. Our Courts might see things differently, based on the explanation you suggest. Time will tell.

Hi Reverdy and all

Looking at my past experience with the courts ,I would most likely not take the stand ,and let my lawyer create reasonable doubt .Hopefully!
But in many of cases and was able to settle

,
Each cases are individual and different and the admissibility of their proof ,credibility of witnesses they have must be analyze in a hole.
Two similar cases can have different verdicts for the reasons mentioned above and others
But something that has no court precedent no legal doctrine is very hard to interpret what the judge will say . It is New grounds ,mounting valid defense strategies is difficult !

Even cases that establish court precedent can have different results depending in which jurisdiction you are .

Same Question might be asked at the Manitoba Court of Appeal and to the Quebec Court of Appeal with different results it has happen .
Decision at the SCC are not always unanimous different Judges might see things differently


I do agree fully
,time will tell .


Cheers


Booker

 

[future canadian]

meanwhile in Vancouver: http://vancouver.ca/news-calendar/city-response-to-passing-of-bill-c-36.aspx

 

[pat98]

wow really impressed by this "response to the passing of bill C36" from Vancouver city ! :thumb:
I don't think mayor Coderre will do that here ... but who knows.
Hope there will be soon a webpage like this one from Vancouver in Montreal city official website !

 

[Halloween Mike]

Sounds like we are fucked...

Can't believe people really gave majority to such a crappy party... thats insane...

 

[Siocnarf]

I am not aware of how the Courts in Canada interpret the acronym "GFE" in the context of the escort industry, but if we look at a recent example from our neighbours, I don't believe saying "I thought the ad meant Good Faith Estimate" as a defense is going to work:

However, the meaning of ''Girlfriend Experience'' varies quite a lot from client to client and from provider to provider. Some people use it to include a number of minimal services, but the true definition is more about the attitude of the provider and affection. It is the one acronym that is not sexual in nature. You can hire a GFE and spend the whole time having no sex at all.

 

[tiannas]

I am not aware of how the Courts in Canada interpret the acronym "GFE" in the context of the escort industry, but if we look at a recent example from our neighbours, I don't believe saying "I thought the ad meant Good Faith Estimate" as a defense is going to work:
"Officer Taniyama testified that the term "GFE" has a literal meaning of girlfriend experience, but that the meaning of girlfriend experience within the context of the escort industry was the equivalent of having sex as boyfriend and girlfriend without contraceptives, and Monteil agreed to an amount of money in exchange for this experience"

Anyone notice that in this example they are equating GFE to BBFS? Not my interpretation of the term at all!

I'm wondering now what changes I should be making to my website? What about my reviews page, which contains text of reviews and links to merb and TER? Should I delete it entirely? Can I at least leave the links up? And my slogan, "outstanding girlfriend experience", should I change that? I don't want to be "outstanding cuddler", lol!

It's one thing to say that ignorance of the law is not a defense, however sometimes the laws aren't super clear. At least, it's not clear how to get around them, lol. I'm sure the official answer would be that I shouldn't have a website at all, but that's not happening. I plan to stay in this game regardless of these asinine new laws!

 

[gugu]

Well, tiannas, you may put anything you like on your web page. It's your Internet hosting service that may impose restrictions. He's subject to accusations, not you.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Anyone notice that in this example they are equating GFE to BBFS? Not my interpretation of the term at all!

Historically the the term GFE as a marketing tool can be traced to one hobbyist by the name of St. Bart who defined the term on TBD back in around 2003, and thereafter the term became a marketing standard throughout the industry. The original definition is now largely irrelevant, but it certainly did not include BBFS, although it did include BBBJ.

Fred is responsible for how services get advertised on the Board but what you do on your own website is your responsibility. Retaining an attorney for advice now is likely a waste of money since nobody knows how the law will be enforced. Discretion is advised until that happens. Personally I don't think a lot will change and it will be similar to the USA which is that there will be selective enforcement against "easy" targets, mainly the street level scene. Will there be female LE going undercover to infiltrate agencies? In the USA agencies that were targeted usually got charged with tax evasion. The stated agenda behind the law is to stop trafficking and if that is true the local agencies using locals and not foreign imports should not have much to worry about. The local indies should in theory have nothing to worry about, but LE could think there is a pimp behind you who is manipulating you, even if there isn't. I think Reverdy already reported indies elsewhere having been shaken down to report on trafficking pimps who don't exist in relation to the shaken down SP.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

wow really impressed by this "response to the passing of bill C36" from Vancouver city ! :thumb:
I don't think mayor Coderre will do that here ... but who knows.
Hope there will be soon a webpage like this one from Vancouver in Montreal city official website !

Does anybody really believe that there will be any enforcement of the new law in Quebec? Has everybody forgotten that incall has been illegal here for years and years and there has been virtually zero enforcement, except in rare cases where underage or trafficking was suspected? Has everybody forgotten the panic here when Mayor Corderre came into office threatening to shut down massage parlors, resulting in zero enforcement?

I was told be a friend just this morning that she read a quote from an SPVM spokesman that their focus will continue to be where it's always been: underage and trafficked women.

While I understand that Fred needs to take some action, there is no need for any of us to change our habits. None whatsoever.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Does anybody really believe that there will be any enforcement of the new law in Quebec? While I understand that Fred needs to take some action, there is no need for any of us to change our habits. None whatsoever.

I am tending to agree with this. I would also think Quebec, generally being the most independent minded of the provinces, would be the last place to expect vigorous enforcement of a federal/national agenda. It's actually a wonderful opportunity for Quebec to make a statement that they don't give a shit about Harper and MacKay and their agendas. These laws will be enforced on a local level and the local LE has it in their power to say "fuck you, this is Quebec and we do things differently here." And they can do that very simply and powerfully by ignoring these agendas.

 

[CharlotteSinclair]

Ah ok thanks for the clarification, but can't the surpreme court once again do something? Why the other parties didn't do anything to stop those law to pass... Its sad there is no manifestation and such like what happen when other stupid laws are pass...

The law was announced in June. The Parliamentary hearings in July and the Senate hearings in September. There were many lobbying efforts by the Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform as well as other stakeholders such as Chez Stella in Montreal, Maggies in Toronto, Pivot Legal Society to name just a few. There were many editorials against the law in both the English and French media. It has been a very difficult and discouraging time for sex workers and sex worker rights activists. Our voices were dismissed left and right and consensual adult sex work was mixed up with child prostitution and exploitation. I shed so many tears during the hearings as others called me and my peers unworthy of respect and dismissed every account except those who are retired and for C36.

So many angry tears.

The Conservatives are in power with majority in both Parliament and the Senate. This law was going to pass but we tried and will continue to fight for our safety.

 

[CharlotteSinclair]

Well, tiannas, you may put anything you like on your web page. It's your Internet hosting service that may impose restrictions. He's subject to accusations, not you.

This is my understanding as well. I can see how a hosting company will simply terminate the hosting rather than actually investigate or fight any charges.

Back up your websites ladies (and gents - as I have male friends who work as well)!!

 

[pat98]

These laws will be enforced on a local level and the local LE has it in their power to say "fuck you, this is Quebec and we do things differently here." And they can do that very simply and powerfully by ignoring these agendas.

Agree 100% with EB on this one. There was not much LE enforcement before, not likely to change anytime soon !
Fuck you stupid CONServatives (CONS as a..holes lol)

 

[Merlot]

Our voices were dismissed left and right and consensual adult sex work was mixed up with child prostitution and exploitation. I shed so many tears during the hearings as others called me and my peers unworthy of respect. That we are victims no matter what. So many angry tears.

The Conservatives are in power with majority in both Parliament and the Senate. This law was going to pass but we tried and will continue to fight for our safety.

I haven't read or heard much relating to how Conservatives think in Canada or in the general operation of applying their views to the political process except on this issue. So it may be unfair for me to make a general statement based on only one example. In the U.S. most Conservatives would view this issue as an opportunity to make a comprehensive moral statement. Many would see it as something that's a very personal challenge to themselves that they would take as their duty to reflect their moral/religious beliefs in the forming and carrying out of the law. It would be extremely difficult then for them to separate adult sex work from child prostitution and exploitation because for them it all about sexual immorality and degrees of offenses really don't matter. They might understand your arguments, They might even accept the basic facts of your arguments, but they would see it all as irrelevant because it's the nature of the work that is the offense and that's the thing that matters to them. I would have bet there would be little real difference in how Canadian Conservatives think and would approach this kind of Bill and everything you say and what I have heard and read tells me that's how it is.

Basically sex workers had little real chance to get their problems realistically addressed and separated from the issue of child exploitation because you are labeled as victims, not freely thinking adult workers in control of their own lives. Mostly, that's the result of stunted moral beliefs and the effect of how the media portrays the situation and what much of the public has been taught to believe. Don't be surprised if any sex board gets the same treatment.



Merlot

 

[tiannas]

It has been a very difficult and discouraging time for sex workers and sex worker rights activists. Our voices were dismissed left and right and consensual adult sex work was mixed up with child prostitution and exploitation. I shed so many tears during the hearings as others called me and my peers unworthy of respect and dismissed every account except those who are retired and for C36.

I am far from an activist, on the contrary, I keep a very low profile considering I work in a professional capacity and am also a single mother. However I felt strongly enough about this issue that I agreed to do an interview for CTV (on the understanding that they would not show my face). Obviously it was overwhelmingly positive toward sex work, portraying a successful businesswoman who actually chose sex work - as far from a victim as you could get really. Sadly, the interview never ran. The reporter seemed very positive and happy with the results, so i can only speculate that someone higher up didn't like the idea of showing sex workers in a positive light. It does anger and sadden me.