COVID's vaccine, by whom, when, effective? all around the vaccine

[gallantca]

Definition of Questioning in the dictionary

OK, let's get out wikipedia : A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation,[3][4][5] when other explanations are more probable.[3][6][7]

because we are too dumb to think, otherwise, we are conspiracy theorist.

Those are not mutually exclusive in all cases.

 

[gallantca]

I don’t believe in vaccine mandates as I think people should have the freedom of choice however I do believe that all unvaccinated who have to be treated for Covid should be charged the full amount of hospital and doctors fees.
Vaccinations are free available to everyone and have relatively few side affects so anybody choosing not to be vaccinated should forfeit free medical assistance for it.

Your idea solves the problem of the unvaccinated putting a disproportional burden on health care. Transfer the unvaccinated to private health care.

However if a non vaccinated person carries a higher risk to the people around him, then he should be restricted to reduce that risk.

People use the argument a vaccinated person can also transmit, but so far the science is showing at lower rates/risk. I don't think there is a definitive answer to the increased risk.

 

[Francoquart]

OK, let's get out wikipedia : A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation,[3][4][5] when other explanations are more probable.[3][6][7]



Those are not mutually exclusive in all cases.

Questioning is not explaining. You question things when you start observing inconsistencies, coincidences, and bull shit in general. Like that unvaccinated are spreading more than the vaccinated... What data shows that?? What are the measurements? How on earth were they able to calculate that so fast, and decide on it? Why are we seeing Unvaccinated Children all of sudden singled in the statistics? So you start wondering how is the data collected and used in those stat. There are legitimate questions and not an explanation. As for the media, and the business groups, like i said easy to prove, so these are facts not theories.
On the other hand, isn' t dismissing any other's opinion on the basis that they are silly and just labeling as conspiracy a form of arrogance or judgement? I mean, why is it an impossibility that the COVID situation has been used by different groups and being milked to suit and promote their interest? The groups benefiting from this situation are neither sinister nor fictive. They are real and observable. Has the media proven its neutrality and objectivity in all issues and crisis?
Of course, I can go on forever, but the point I think is clear. Questioning is not explaining or conspiring.

 

[sene5hos]

I don’t believe in vaccine mandates as I think people should have the freedom of choice however I do believe that all unvaccinated who have to be treated for Covid should be charged the full amount of hospital and doctors fees.
Vaccinations are free available to everyone and have relatively few side affects so anybody choosing not to be vaccinated should forfeit free medical assistance for it.

The unvaccinated will be hospitalized and take the place of people waiting for surgery.

I support your billing idea, but it never will because the fees are too high.

What do you think of unvaccinated people who infect people around them who are vaccinated?
They will not die, but they may get sick.

 

[Fradi]

What do you think of unvaccinated people who infect people around them who are vaccinated?
They will not die, but they may get sick.

The problem with that is right now fully vaccinated people are also getting infected and are infecting others.so it is pretty difficult and unfair to just blame the unvaccinated.
If the vaccines were perfect then we shouldn’t have to worry about the unvaccinated should we.
Making them pay for treatment however seems logical as they did not take all the steps available to avoid hospitalization.

 

[Fradi]

Your idea solves the problem of the unvaccinated putting a disproportional burden on health care. Transfer the unvaccinated to private health care.

However if a non vaccinated person carries a higher risk to the people around him, then he should be restricted to reduce that risk.

People use the argument a vaccinated person can also transmit, but so far the science is showing at lower rates/risk. I don't think there is a definitive answer to the increased risk.

That science is changing on a daily basis and the likelihood of getting infected whether you are vaccinated or not is being bridged and getting closer with each new variant.
The only thing that seems to be consistent is that you have a much better chance of not getting seriously ill or dying if you are vaccinated.
Yes the obvious choice is to be vaccinated but vaccines seem to be less and less effective with each new variant and with time between doses in preventing infection and spread of infection. This data is changing constantly so I would not simply blame the unvaccinated on the spread of Covid right now.
That is what vaccine passports are for which I believe in for now but I am getting less and less sure about their effectiveness with the new emerging variants. that are closing the gap of who can actually be infected and spread the virus.

 

[gaby]

None said the vaccines were perfect....ils protègent à près de 90% des infections sérieuses et hospitalisations....et oui une très petite minorité---de l'ordre d'environ 10 %---peut se retrouver hospitalisé et même sérieusement....personne ne nie ce fait...

MAIS les non vaccinés---estimés à environ 640,000 here in Québec---sont encore la très grande majorité----entendu hier près de 85%--des cas positifs et des hospitalisations.......les éclosions sont beaucoup en milieu scolaire et beaucoup de 5-11 ans ne sont pas encore

vaccinés....mais le processus est en cours......Définitif que la vaccination est la seule réponse à ce virus avec lequel nous devrons apprendre à vivre.....my 2 cents .

 

[Fradi]

Non vaccinated are only 3.4 times less likely to be infected than vaccinated and this gap has been closing every day, same with hospitalization which is now 15.9 and I can remember not long ago it stood at 25.
Yes it makes sense to be vaccinated and to me it is the smart thing to do, but it is not the magic cure all that we have hoped for and we still don’t know what Omicron will do, so no it is not the pandemic of the unvaccinated anymore that is total BS, yes there is the possibility that these variants emerged because of the unvaccinated but who’s fault is that seeing as most variants emerged from places like India and Africa where there weren’t enough vaccines and the distribution networks are probably so piss poor that even if there were it would be difficult to vaccinate most of the population.

 

[sene5hos]

View attachment 19364
yes there is the possibility that these variants emerged because of the unvaccinated

No, it's certainly

 

[gallantca]

View attachment 19364
Non vaccinated are only 3.4 times less likely to be infected than vaccinated and this gap has been closing every day, same with hospitalization which is now 15.9 and I can remember not long ago it stood at 25.
Yes it makes sense to be vaccinated and to me it is the smart thing to do, but it is not the magic cure all that we have hoped for and we still don’t know what Omicron will do, so no it is not the pandemic of the unvaccinated anymore that is total BS, yes there is the possibility that these variants emerged because of the unvaccinated but who’s fault is that seeing as most variants emerged from places like India and Africa where there weren’t enough vaccines and the distribution networks are probably so piss poor that even if there were it would be difficult to vaccinate most of the population.

It will be interesting to see if the gap widens again after a third dose. Data from Israel seems to show it will.

We are fortunate that we are always on the tail end of trends so we can learn from others. At least some of us can.

At 16x chance of hospitalization it may not be a pandemic of the unvaccinated but they are the putting the health care system at unnecessary risk.

 

[Fradi]

At 16x chance of hospitalization it may not be a pandemic of the unvaccinated but they are the putting the health care system at unnecessary risk.

This I totally agree with and that is the reason I would charge for all Covid treatment for the unvaccinated.

 

[sene5hos]

That science is changing on a daily basis and the likelihood of getting infected whether you are vaccinated or not is being bridged and getting closer with each new variant.
The only thing that seems to be consistent is that you have a much better chance of not getting seriously ill or dying if you are vaccinated.
Yes the obvious choice is to be vaccinated but vaccines seem to be less and less effective with each new variant and with time between doses in preventing infection and spread of infection. This data is changing constantly so I would not simply blame the unvaccinated on the spread of Covid right now.
That is what vaccine passports are for which I believe in for now but I am getting less and less sure about their effectiveness with the new emerging variants. that are closing the gap of who can actually be infected and spread the virus.

Pfizer says booster shot of its vaccine protects against omicron variant

Initial two-dose Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine may not provide sufficient antibodies against the new variant, according to early data released by the companies.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[sene5hos]

Making them pay for treatment however seems logical as they did not take all the steps available to avoid hospitalization.

Yes, it's possible, but never happen.

 

[Fradi]

No, it's certainly

You always make these claims without any proof what so ever.
Strange coming from someone who claims to be a scientist.
How much data and and proof is there to support how and why this Omicron emerged which was only detected in November but you already know how it developed? wow maybe they hired the wrong person to develop these vaccines.
You want people to take you seriously, stop with these off the cuff claims.
You should know what they say about quality as opposed to quantity.

 

[Fradi]

Pfizer says booster shot of its vaccine protects against omicron variant

Initial two-dose Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine may not provide sufficient antibodies against the new variant, according to early data released by the companies.

www.nbcnews.com

Probably, it is also highly probable and certainly profitable for Pfizer to sell more vaccines.
I have already gotten my Pfizer booster shot, now I have 3 different vaccines for Covid.

 

[gallantca]

Probably, it is also highly probable and certainly profitable for Pfizer to sell more vaccines.
I have already gotten my Pfizer booster shot, now I have 3 different vaccines for Covid.

You may have seen the data from Israel on the benefit of a booster after 5 months

Effectiveness of a third dose of the BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 vaccine for preventing severe outcomes in Israel: an observational study

Our findings suggest that a third dose of the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine is effective in protecting individuals against severe COVID-19-related outcomes, compared with receiving only two doses at least 5 months ago.

www.thelancet.com

 

[Fradi]

You may have seen the data from Israel on the benefit of a booster after 5 months

Effectiveness of a third dose of the BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 vaccine for preventing severe outcomes in Israel: an observational study

Our findings suggest that a third dose of the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine is effective in protecting individuals against severe COVID-19-related outcomes, compared with receiving only two doses at least 5 months ago.

www.thelancet.com

Yes but that does not include Omnicron does it.
If I didn’t think it would be of benefit I wouldn’t have taken the booster the first chance I had.
I am just not so quick to sing the praises of something until there is more evidence.

Data from Israel is always important as they seem to have been ahead of the game right from the start but having said that with everybody holding them up as the standard to follow, reality is that their death rate over all is actually worse than that of Canada.
Israel: 880 per 1 million population
Canada: 782 per 1 million population

Coronavirus Update (Live): 125,429,216 Cases and 2,756,742 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...

www.worldometers.info

 

[Fradi]

and the gap keeps getting closer. Just a day ago it was 3.4 times more likely to be infected if you were unvaccinated and 15.9 times more likely to be hospitalized. So much for the pandemic of the unvaccinated only,

 

[gallantca]

and the gap keeps getting closer. Just a day ago it was 3.4 times more likely to be infected if you were unvaccinated and 15.9 times more likely to be hospitalized. So much for the pandemic of the unvaccinated only,

Here are two explanations

When Alberta was going through its challenges, they published numbers by vaccination status and age. It showed that if you were in the 70 y/o age group, your chances of hospitalization was 10x less if vaccinated. But if you were in the 30 y/o is was 25x less. So as the number of infections grows in the older age groups, the weighted average will vary. What we are probably seeing is more of the older group is getting infected, hence skewing the numbers. Is this due to the fact the older population was vaccinated longer ago , that they are simply more vulnerable, that the younger age groups are getting more vaccinated .....who knows.

The other explanation, preferred by the conspiracy theorists, (I mean critical thinkers) is that it's a ploy by the government to justify more injections.

 

[Fradi]

^^^^
Or simply more and more fully vaccinated people are being infected as these newer variants are more capable of eluding the vaccines and as time passes between doses.
I don’t like making up theories as I am neither a scientist nor a statistician and that is exactly why I like to wait until there is enough evidence and agreement before jumping to conclusions.
This is why questioning is important and looking at both sides of the coin without having blinders on.
The only thing so far which seems to be convincing thankfully is that the vaccines do work well in preventing serious illness and death and let’s hope that remains like that.