Nice la Presse Article on XO this morning

[Lunaseraphim]

There's nothing you can do as a client aside from advocating for decrim and for sex worker's rights.

What you can do is change the way you treat sex workers, and the way you perceive us and our services. You can realize that you're paying us for our time (not for the number of minutes you're fucking us and getting your dick sucked) and that our services are valuable. You can also change your personal relationship to the idea of hiring a sex worker.. A lot of people feel guilt and resentment, and it's really unhelpful. ''No matter what, it's abuse anyways, so might as well turn a blind eye''.. or ''I'm angry that I can't get this for free, and I'm going to act as bitter and vengeful as possible'' are not really great attitudes.

I have a long list of things that are to be considered but I don't want to attract animosity.

 

[Flabert]

There's nothing you can do as a client aside from advocating for decrim and for sex worker's rights.

What you can do is change the way you treat sex workers, and the way you perceive us and our services. You can realize that you're paying us for our time and that our services are valuable. You can also change your personal relationship to the idea of hiring a sex worker.. A lot of people feel guilt and resentment, and it's really unhelpful. ''No matter what, it's abuse anyways, so might as well turn a blind eye''.. or ''I'm angry that I can't get this for free, and I'm going to act as bitter and vengeful as possible'' are not really great attitudes.

I have a long list of things that are to be considered but I don't want to attract animosity.

You have not attracted animosity and won’t by sharing your thoughts. People value your opinion even if they don’t all agree 100%.

I think decrim for customers would help customers act if they see something not right. Hard for a potential criminal to call police when a worst crime is underway (coercion, etc.)

 

[ginaflash]

Am not making any recommendations here, just saying the govt might want to stick its nose in hygiene even though it decriminalizes sexwork.

It could be as trivial as ensuring that condoms are available, conditions are appropriate (“regulation 23-3.4-xx a functional shower offering water between 40 and 70c must available to clients and providers”).

Of course the govt might want to ensure that sex workers are tested - most likely if confronted by a moral panic (I envision Maria Mourani shriek for this). Testing clients would be more logistically complicated but who knows what they would consider.

TYSM for giving me more details on your thoughts, it would actually make a lot of sense and would be of great benefit to providers in a way since lots of people have to work in less than sanitary spaces (broken showers, mold, not enough utilities for everyone). From what I've heard it can be even worse in places that are for trans/queer mp (again I navigate mostly into massage parlours atm so yeah, speaking about what I know, have access to present experience wise).

There are a couple of org that make sure to distribute condoms / lube and other safety / sex health stuff to parlours, providers, etc. We are free to use our own as well ofc ! Just so you know ^^

I wish there was better sex ed in schools and everywhere in general so that EVERYONE has more knowledge about sex health and safety and a tendency to go get a screening every 3 months at least hihu what a beautiful world it would be.

 

[ginaflash]

There's nothing you can do as a client aside from advocating for decrim and for sex worker's rights.

What you can do is change the way you treat sex workers, and the way you perceive us and our services. You can realize that you're paying us for our time (not for the number of minutes you're fucking us and getting your dick sucked) and that our services are valuable. You can also change your personal relationship to the idea of hiring a sex worker.. A lot of people feel guilt and resentment, and it's really unhelpful. ''No matter what, it's abuse anyways, so might as well turn a blind eye''.. or ''I'm angry that I can't get this for free, and I'm going to act as bitter and vengeful as possible'' are not really great attitudes.

I have a long list of things that are to be considered but I don't want to attract animosity.

this, 100%

 

[Verbal Kint]

I remember seeing an SPs who I haven't seen for a long time and she used to be at XO. I just mentioned I have no idea what happened to XO and she said the owner became a drug addict and that was the downfall of the agency. Another SP another told me that the booker didn't stop asking her to join an orgy when she didn't want to. I remember XO organizing some orgy party but apparently it was only for the ''loyal'' clients, I wonder if those events went well or the sexual assaults might be where it comes from?

I remember around the last times I used XO, a moment freaked me out. The agency knew my username here and that I was a regular. One day, they contacted me and they called me by my first name. I never shared my full name beside the SPs. I asked the last SP I saw if she mentioned me by my full name and she said no, she doesn't know how whoever contacted knew my first name.

Another thing, I noticed was when booking and arriving at the door, they ask us to just enter and not knock. I suspected that was because neighbour noticed multiple door knocking for the same door and raised suspection. At that time, it was the only agency that asked me to do that. So this fit with the neighbour getting suspicious.

I been doing this activity since I was 18yo and now I am 37yo. Even with all those years, I never knew the ''behind the scene'' of this business.

Really disappointing to read this, I hope for the best for the victims.

Something was definitly fishy when they dropped off the Agency listing here. I did see an Sp who moved on to another agency telling me some spooky stuff about them. That being said, I never had a bad encounter, nor was feeling watched. If you had any of your buddies who was selling weed in their teens; it is always the gateway to getting cut, besides being careless or dumb. Neighbors notices paterns. People get bored, people like a good ol fashion drama. So imagine when they see frequent comming and going in their block/neighborhood... That being said. If I have to trade off my phone number being in some police book vs helping under age exploitation; I will gladly accept the trade-off.

And Remember... If you pay and have a camera present. Porno isn't a vice crime... (Be gents though, leave it off.)

 

[EagerBeaver]

Yes we do remember! She`s most likely not in jail. The norm in Canada is that you are out on bail (en liberté sous caution avec certaines conditions) during the judicial process. We don't know if she pleaded guilty or not. The whole process from charges being laid to conclusion of the case can easily take 1-2 years. Not sure the media will give us updates on her case though.

Yes, in all likelihood her charges are still pending and when there is some disposition of her charges, whether through a pretrial resolution, a guilty plea, a conviction, or defense verdict, it will hit the news cycle again. If you do a search she is dabbling in many other businesses and has her own website, so her position as escort agency owner is merely one of many different businesses. These include, according to her website, real estate investment, medical spa and aesthetics, online content creation, day trading, and finance and financial consulting. She claims on her website that her net worth is $4 million, so presumably she can pay for top notch attorneys who will handle these charges and get her a very good disposition, such as some community service and a period of probation as well as some drug counseling.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

You have not attracted animosity and won’t by sharing your thoughts. People value your opinion even if they don’t all agree 100%.

I think decrim for customers would help customers act if we see something not right. Hard for a potential criminal to call police when a worst crime is underway (coercion, etc.)

Decrim has a lot of advantages, including the one you named.

One thing I've noticed is that not everyone who has bad behavior as a client is truly a horrible person, often bad behavior is enabled by peers. Certain types of behavior and certain expectations are normalized.

I'll give a personal example which is very mild compared to a lot of things colleagues have told me lately. There is a client who left a bitter comment on my review thread, he says he was disappointed, in a very vague way. I was really weirded out by this and I did a lot of research. I ended up finding out that he saw a friend of mine because he wrote a review for her, and I found out who he is that way. It turns out I had seen them over half a year before he left the comment, but I remembered the booking. This person was so rough with me sexually that I was in pain, and I dissociated through it. I clearly was not enjoying myself and I guess I should have pretended and been really enthusiastic despite wanting to cry from being in pain.. Personally, I don't think that's normal, but maybe after seeing the way guys talk about their bookings, he thought it was.

People put pressure for free hang outs, they normalize not leaving and using terms like ''clock watcher''.. I think a lot of people don't realize how coercive reviews can be. A lot of my friends have been told ''I'll give you a good review if you do this'' or ''I'll give you a good review if you tell me your colleagues real names or show me pictures of their faces''. People also often get threatened with bad reviews, even by clients they haven't actually seen, or they get bad reviews by clients who couldn't push boundaries.

I think maybe we should question doing things like constantly complaining about rates, about women's weight and age, pressuring for certain types of services, complaining about things that are normal etc. As a customer your voice is being heard online by sex workers and by their employers. You have power as a client. The way you talk about things online impact us.. Maybe it's time to decide it's not a super great idea for girls under a certain age to be in this industry.

If you know a large cut is being taken from our pay and that we have to see several guys in a row, maybe be lenient and consider tipping.. It's details like this that matter.

There's often talk on this forum of ''girls not truly working'' if they are not fucking their client the whole time.. which has actually led to many guys asking for part of the money back and making threats. There is a trend of guys being VERY late or leaving early and threatening the girl with LE or other vague BS to retrieve part of the money or all of it. That's really scary, imo. I'm just using examples. I know how a lot of things that have been said on this forum affected me.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

It's not just clients who are criminalized.. We could be as well, for ''soliciting''. Also, like I said, the law allows a lot of different people to be considered pimps. According to the law, I am not allowed to work with another provider. A landlord could also kick me out if I hosted from home. It's not sunshine and rainbows for us, either. The law is made to be very complicated because it's not truly meant to help sex workers.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Yes we do remember! She`s most likely not in jail. The norm in Canada is that you are out on bail (en liberté sous caution avec certaines conditions) during the judicial process. We don't know if she pleaded guilty or not. The whole process from charges being laid to conclusion of the case can easily take 1-2 years. Not sure the media will give us updates on her case though.

I meant i was expecting the charges to be dropped and her resuming her work by now. Since she has not i assume its more serious.

 

[2fast2slow]

Well, technically, the moment you pay someone for sex it is a kind of ''class abuse'' where you use your economical power to use the body of someone that is systemically oppressed by the context of its state of class inferiority. The only way you can really be ok with this is because you would be alienated by your class consciousness as a member of the proletariat.

i disagree with that. That is a stereotype. I've been doing this a long time and most of the women i have seen are fully in control of their bodies and have made a very mature, informed and concious choice to "share" their bodies, for a "fee". Of course a lot of women have also "fallen" into the industry while NOT being in control. Both situations coexist.

Also, allow me to add that the power imbalance is not always in the favour of the men. Not discussed at all ever here, but how many men are lonely, depressed, isolated and desperate. They could be "addicted to sex". They will overpay and leave feeling completely empty. They put women on a pedestal and crave even the slightest hint of affection....In those contexts, which I believe is more frequent than discussed, I beleive the women have more "power".

Long story short, in a perfect world it would always be 50-50, but unfortunately we are not there yet. You are offering physical intimacy for a fee, I appreciate this offer and take advantage, all while trying to be the best "gentleman" I can be.

And sharing your body for a fee is not that radical a thing. When we go see a therapist we share our most deep inner thoughts. When you get a colonoscopy, 3 medical professionals are in the room looking up you ass

I have seen massage therapists, psychologists, physical therapists, chiropractors, osteopaths, etc...None have the healing power of a good sex worker, that's power.

 

[Verbal Kint]

Decrim has a lot of advantages, including the one you named.

One thing I've noticed is that not everyone who has bad behavior as a client is truly a horrible person, often bad behavior is enabled by peers. Certain types of behavior and certain expectations are normalized.

I'll give a personal example which is very mild compared to a lot of things colleagues have told me lately. There is a client who left a bitter comment on my review thread, he says he was disappointed, in a very vague way. I was really weirded out by this and I did a lot of research. I ended up finding out that he saw a friend of mine because he wrote a review for her, and I found out who he is that way. It turns out I had seen them over half a year before he left the comment, but I remembered the booking. This person was so rough with me sexually that I was in pain, and I dissociated through it. I clearly was not enjoying myself and I guess I should have pretended and been really enthusiastic despite wanting to cry from being in pain.. Personally, I don't think that's normal, but maybe after seeing the way guys talk about their bookings, he thought it was.

People put pressure for free hang outs, they normalize not leaving and using terms like ''clock watcher''.. I think a lot of people don't realize how coercive reviews can be. A lot of my friends have been told ''I'll give you a good review if you do this'' or ''I'll give you a good review if you tell me your colleagues real names or show me pictures of their faces''. People also routinely get threatened with bad reviews, even by clients they haven't actually seen.

I think maybe we should question doing things like constantly complaining about rates, about women's weight and age, pressuring for certain types of services, complaining about things that are normal etc. As a customer your voice is being heard online by sex workers and by their employers. You have power as a client. The way you talk about things online impact us.. Maybe it's time to decide it's not a super great idea for girls under a certain age to be in this industry.

If you know a large cut is being taken from our pay and that we have to see several guys in a row, maybe be lenient and consider tipping.. It's details like this that matter.

There's often talk on this forum of ''girls not truly working'' if they are not fucking their client the whole time.. which has actually led to many guys asking for part of the money back and making threats. There is a trend of guys being VERY late or leaving early and threatening the girl with LE or other vague BS to retrieve part of the money or all of it. That's really scary, imo. I'm just using examples. I know how a lot of things that have been said on this forum affected me.

We do suck sometimes. We might think because we paid for a service, we get to own it. If you go to a restaurant and start breaking glasses, this will not be tolerated! And we're talking about human beings. I'm not pointing any fingers but rough porn seems to be normalized lately as well.
To each their own, but I don't know what fuck is up with that. Are we making a return to having submisive fuck doll is that what we want?
If you do, make sure the Sp is on board with that.

Communication before hand is key.
I dont do rough stuff. Never liked it. I had ladies ask me to switch position or to stop because... Doesn't matter the reason. Consent comes into play!
And yes sometimes we finished our time by different means. One time She got up and gave me 30min worth of my time back. It's not from me being rough, she was hurting while on top. I did appreciate it, but would never have stoop to ask.
Also, I had tremendous and horrible encounters in this hobby. It is the name of the game. I have left good and terrible reviews about sp. But i'ts not nor will it ever be about performance. It's all in the attitude, the general hygiene, or if the transaction was legit or not.
I don't aproach my waiter telling them I will leave a google review depending on gratuities or impecable service...
I do hope you girls talk to one another in order to avoid those clients.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Also, allow me to add that the power imbalance is not always in the favour of the men. Not discussed at all ever here, but how many men are lonely, depressed, isolated and desperate. They could be "addicted to sex". They will overpay and leave feeling completely empty. They put women on a pedestal and crave even the slightest hint of affection....In those contexts, which I beleive is more frequent than discussed, I beleive the women have more "power".

I agree with your conclusion that women have more power in the transactional aspect, but not as to your reasoning. I am no longer active as a client (as another poster has already mentioned), and haven't been in 7-8 years. During my prime years which were approximately 2000-2017, I was primarily motivated by a powerful libido. I frequently overpaid whatever was deemed the market rate, often felt empty afterwards, but nevertheless repeated the process because the libido was simply too powerful. I always did what I thought was necessary to make the woman I was seeing comfortable including buying gifts and booking longer dates. It was an addiction in a physical sense, although it never reached the point where it caused me any financial harm. I always stayed in my lane financially.

What happened to me is what will eventually happen to all of you. I got old, developed health issues, and the libido faded. It's actually faded to the point where I have even given up the SB sites I had dabbled in for the past however many years. I lost the desire. I do not feel any sense of loss, however. I am actually slightly relieved that the libido doesn't compel me to do it any more. I never would have imagined that I would be comfortable without sex being part of my life, but I am. It almost seemed to define me at one point, but now it's not a part of my life any more. I suppose it is since I am still here, but in the business sense, it is long gone.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

We do suck sometimes. We might think because we paid for a service, we get to own it. If you go to a restaurant and start breaking glasses, this will not be tolerated! And we're talking about human beings. I'm not pointing any fingers but rough porn seems to be normalized lately as well.
To each their own, but I don't know what fuck is up with that. Are we making a return to having submisive fuck doll is that what we want?
If you do, make sure the Sp is on board with that.

Communication before hand is key.
I dont do rough stuff. Never liked it. I had ladies ask me to switch position or to stop because... Doesn't matter the reason. Consent comes into play!
And yes sometimes we finished our time by different means. One time She got up and gave me 30min worth of my time back. It's not from me being rough, she was hurting while on top. I did appreciate it, but would never have stoop to ask.
Also, I had tremendous and horrible encounters in this hobby. It is the name of the game. I have left good and terrible reviews about sp. But i'ts not nor will it ever be about performance. It's all in the attitude, the general hygiene, or if the transaction was legit or not.
I don't aproach my waiter telling them I will leave a google review depending on gratuities or impecable service...
I do hope you girls talk to one another in order to avoid those clients.

Mainstream porn definitely has to do with the problem.. Rough porn, barely legal stuff, BDSM practices being normalized without it being actually acknowledged.. I also think the ''manosphere'' and other such things are influencing the way people about women and about these types of interactions.

I think when leaving a bad review clients have to consider certain things.. For instance it's very hard to have a good attitude if a client walks in, looking angry or upset, not smiling, not talking, jumping on you right away or refusing to shower. I've been burned so even if a client is very unpleasant, I try to smile a lot, but that is because I fear being trashed online. A lot of things should not be written in reviews, like complaining that a girl doesn't offer something, which has never been offered in her ad, makes her look bad.. Or spreading rumors. If the provider is not legit there are more than enough reasons to write a bad review, to protect other clients, but that's another story.

I don't think all clients suck at all. I'm really lucky to have clients who are really kind and gentle, who walk in with a smile and compliments, who bring me gifts, some take me out to dinner, a lot are truly interested in who I am as a person etc.. but when we talk about positive experiences, it almost seems like there is a certain type of client that gets angry that we get well treated. They think we are supposed to be fuck dolls and nothing else. This type of talk is upsetting and those of us who don't want to be treated this way feel discouraged..

Sometimes I've had bookings with clients and would get nervous ''don't you want a 2nd shot?'' and they would answer ''what? no, i just enjoy chatting with you, this is nice''. It just put so much pressure on us. The girl who gave you some of your money back maybe also felt like she had to do it and was afraid you would give her shit..

 

[2fast2slow]

I agree with your conclusion that women have more power in the transactional aspect, but not as to your reasoning. I am no longer active as a client (as another poster has already mentioned), and haven't been in 7-8 years. During my prime years which were approximately 2000-2017, I was primarily motivated by a powerful libido. I frequently overpaid whatever was deemed the market rate, often felt empty afterwards, but nevertheless repeated the process because the libido was simply too powerful. I always did what I thought was necessary to make the woman I was seeing comfortable including buying gifts and booking longer dates. It was an addiction in a physical sense, although it never reached the point where it caused me any financial harm. I always stayed in my lane financially.

What happened to me is what will eventually happen to all of you. I got old, developed health issues, and the libido faded. It's actually faded to the point where I have even given up the SB sites I had dabbled in for the past however many years. I lost the desire. I do not feel any sense of loss, however. I am actually slightly relieved that the libido doesn't compel me to do it any more. I never would have imagined that I would be comfortable without sex being part of my life, but I am. It almost seemed to define me at one point, but now it's not a part of my life any more. I suppose it is since I am still here, but in the business sense, it is long gone.

maybe you were just closer to the 50-50 ratio. Your libido compelled you, but you were never out of control, and you remained respectful to the ladies.
And yeah, i know what you mean about the libido fading. In my 30s, I once drove 1 hour after a 12 hour shift to see a girl based on a 2-line newspaper add. Now I think, "ah man, theres gonna be 10 mins of extra traffic, maybe I'll take a pass for today" lol.
This activity has defined me for so long, I wonder what will happen when my libido completely goes.
By the way that 1 hour drive after a 12 hour shift encounter ended up been a quick but good encounter, even by my current standards I got lucky that time

 

[minutemenX]

Have you read my very long comment about decriminalization versus legalization? People are not pushing for decrim because they don't want to pay taxes lol

I'm not going to repeat all of this.

Why prostitution is not yet legalized? Because poles and research repeatedly show that majority of women in democratic courtiers is against legalizing it while male population is for or ambiguous.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Why prostitution is not yet legalized? Because poles and research repeatedly show that majority of women in democratic courtiers is against legalizing it while male population is for or ambiguous.

What does your statement have anything to do with what I said? I was talking about decriminalization, not legalization. Which polls are you even referring to? Statistics don't mean much and they are often biased. It's true that there are a lot of civilian women who have preconceived notions about sex work, but this isn't the subject.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

i disagree with that. That is a stereotype. I've been doing this a long time and most of the women i have seen are fully in control of their bodies and have made a very mature, informed and concious choice to "share" their bodies, for a "fee". Of course a lot of women have also "fallen" into the industry while NOT being in control. Both situations coexist.

Also, allow me to add that the power imbalance is not always in the favour of the men. Not discussed at all ever here, but how many men are lonely, depressed, isolated and desperate. They could be "addicted to sex". They will overpay and leave feeling completely empty. They put women on a pedestal and crave even the slightest hint of affection....In those contexts, which I believe is more frequent than discussed, I beleive the women have more "power".

Long story short, in a perfect world it would always be 50-50, but unfortunately we are not there yet. You are offering physical intimacy for a fee, I appreciate this offer and take full advantage, all while trying to be the best "gentleman" I can be.

And sharing your body for a fee is not that radical a thing. When we go see a therapist we share our most deep inner thoughts. When you get a colonoscopy, 3 medical professionals are in the room looking up you ass

I have seen massage therapists, psychologists, physical therapists, chiropractors, osteopaths, etc...None have the healing power of a good sex worker, that's power.

I'm not sharing my body.. first of all.

Second of all, I think it's really a stereotype to say that the power imbalance works in our favor ''because men are depressed and lonely''. A lot of the time, men are resentful that they have to pay for a service they believe should be free. I don't think I'm being abused by my clients, but I am not abusing them for being lonely. They are the ones who choose to answer my ad and want to seek my services.

If you think we have healing power, then maybe value our services instead of implying that we are taking advantage of poor lonely men and making them over pay............

I think we gotta be careful with these extreme discourses.

 

[2fast2slow]

I'm not sharing my body.. first of all.

Second of all, I think it's really a stereotype to say that the power imbalance works in our favor ''because men are depressed and lonely''. A lot of the time, men are resentful that they have to pay for a service they believe should be free. I don't think I'm being abused by my clients, but I am not abusing them for being lonely. They are the ones who choose to answer my ad and want to seek my services.

If you think we have healing power, then maybe value our services instead of implying that we are taking advantage of poor lonely men and making them over pay............

I think we gotta be careful with these extreme discourses.

I was responding to another poster that said "you pay someone for sex it is a kind of ''class abuse'' where you use your economical power to use the body of someone that is systemically oppressed",
and I disagreed for the reasons I stated. I never implied sex workers are intentionnaly "taking advantage" of lonely men, just that, in that context, the power imbalance shifts, that's all. If that is a problem, well i dont know what to say anymore.

 

[Verbal Kint]

Mainstream porn definitely has to do with the problem.. Rough porn, barely legal stuff, BDSM practices being normalized without it being actually acknowledged.. I also think the ''manosphere'' and other such things are influencing the way people about women and about these types of interactions.

I think when leaving a bad review clients have to consider certain things.. For instance it's very hard to have a good attitude if a client walks in, looking angry or upset, not smiling, not talking, jumping on you right away or refusing to shower. I've been burned so even if a client is very unpleasant, I try to smile a lot, but that is because I fear being trashed online. A lot of things should not be written in reviews, like complaining that a girl doesn't offer something, which has never been offered in her ad, makes her look bad.. Or spreading rumors. If the provider is not legit there are more than enough reasons to write a bad review, to protect other clients, but that's another story.

I don't think all clients suck at all. I'm really lucky to have clients who are really kind and gentle, who walk in with a smile and compliments, who bring me gifts, some take me out to dinner, a lot are truly interested in who I am as a person etc.. but when we talk about positive experiences, it almost seems like there is a certain type of client that gets angry that we get well treated. They think we are supposed to be fuck dolls and nothing else. This type of talk is upsetting and those of us who don't want to be treated this way feel discouraged..

Sometimes I've had bookings with clients and would get nervous ''don't you want a 2nd shot?'' and they would answer ''what? no, i just enjoy chatting with you, this is nice''. It just put so much pressure on us. The girl who gave you some of your money back maybe also felt like she had to do it and was afraid you would give her shit..

10% of the cients will cause 90% of the issues. And by creating fear or discomfort in Sp we stray even further from what could be a genuine moment. Where at some point it might feel like ordering from a mc menu...Fake smile, check. nervousness, check. No one wants that. Yes it is theatre, and beautiful make belief in the end. But the time, experience can be real and fulfil both parties. I do enjoy your inputs, and I do beleive it does educates or at least inform. Please keep going (If you do feel like it...)

 

[minutemenX]

What does your statement have anything to do with what I said? I was talking about decriminalization, not legalization. Which polls are you even referring to? Statistics don't mean much and they are often biased. It's true that there are a lot of civilian women who have preconceived notions about sex work, but this isn't the subject.

If any activity is not criminal, i.e. not against the law by all participating parties, by definition it is the legal activity.